Author Topic: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread  (Read 2478 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2017, 10:40:17 AM »
Islam as embodied by its founder is indeed predicated on blind obedience.

Well, there's an idea you need never scrutinize.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2017, 10:40:52 AM »
Well, there's an idea you need never scrutinize.

Feel free to prove me wrong.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 10:41:35 AM »
There is only one single religion that holds such beliefs, but...

I believe there are many such religions. A religion is by definition a belief system where beliefs are held immune to scrutiny.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 10:43:01 AM »
A religion is by definition a belief system where beliefs are held immune to scrutiny.

By your definition, most definitely.

Quick: who said Test all things; hold fast that which is good? (No Google, please!)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 10:47:18 AM by Florestan »
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 10:51:06 AM »
Islam as embodied by its founder is indeed predicated on blind obedience; Christianity as embodied by its founder is indeed predicated on free will.

Are you serious? Obedience and free will have next to nothing to do with the religion. It's about how a religion is practiced. At the moment Christian countries in the world have been much more democratic than Islamic countries, but how was it 1000 years ago for example? How would the Islamic countries be today if western Christian countries wouldn't have messed up in the middle east for the last 40 or so years? Is Islamic terror a product of Islam or Christianity? Both? It's not so black and white.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2017, 11:03:09 AM »
Islam as embodied by its founder is indeed predicated on blind obedience; Christianity as embodied by its founder is indeed predicated on free will.




     These statements about the supposed predication of religious movements may have some truth value about how they have operated historically, but I would suggest that social movements evolve over time so that they acquire a variety of meanings well beyond what founders may have thought. We have to get past understanding self authenticating beliefs from the standpoint of a self authenticating belief about them. I call that "second order subjectivity", which I just made up.

A religion is by definition a belief system where beliefs are held immune to scrutiny.

     I disagree that this is how religion is defined, but it's true about how religion is practiced, when it is practiced.

     I hold the difference between "believe" and "believe in" to be meaningful. I believe Saturn has rings, it would never occur to me to "believe in" their existence. In the first case I state that Saturn has rings, in the second case I point to a belief that I might hold on grounds other than the visual evidence of their existence. But I don't "believe in" the rings, I only believe they are there.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2017, 11:04:13 AM »
Are you serious?

Yes.

Quote
Obedience and free will have next to nothing to do with the religion.


Are you serious?


Quote
At the moment Christian countries in the world have been much more democratic than Islamic countries,

Precisely.

Quote
but how was it 1000 years ago for example?

All things considered, it was the same.

Quote
How would the Islamic countries be today if western Christian countries wouldn't have messed up in the middle east for the last 40 or so years?

I can give you an example of what an Islamic country would have been today had the Christian West not refrained from messing up: Iran. This time, I allow you, nay, I urge you, to Google Iran under the Shah regime as opposed to Iran under the Ayatollah regime --- and please come back and tell me which regime was more friendly to women, science and culture.

Quote
Is Islamic terror a product of Islam or Christianity?

A product of Islam.

The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

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Offline drogulus

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2017, 03:50:05 PM »


The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.



    Muhammed had the unfortunate tendency to be a real person, which placed limits on how good he could be. Jesus is more of an idea, which makes it totally a slam dunk to be good.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2017, 06:45:37 PM »
All things considered, it was the same.

1000 years ago Islamic Middle East was the intellectual center in the world developing math and astronomy while Christian Europe had it's development stagnated for centuries. 

The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

Ironically atheists are more likely to follow the teachings of Jesus than Christian believers.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2017, 06:54:25 PM »
I disagree that this is how religion is defined, but it's true about how religion is practiced, when it is practiced.

I hold the difference between "believe" and "believe in" to be meaningful. I believe Saturn has rings, it would never occur to me to "believe in" their existence. In the first case I state that Saturn has rings, in the second case I point to a belief that I might hold on grounds other than the visual evidence of their existence. But I don't "believe in" the rings, I only believe they are there.

Fair enough, that was a partial definion actually, the relevant part of the discussion.

Belief supported by evidence is actually knowledge rather than belief which requires lack, ignorance or rejection of evidence.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2017, 10:41:53 PM »
How would the Islamic countries be today if western Christian countries wouldn't have messed up in the middle east for the last 40 or so years?

Still herding goats and camels while practicing subsistence agriculture.

Is Islamic terror a product of Islam or Christianity? Both? It's not so black and white.

The question to be asked about religious justification of rampant killing: "Does it fulfill a moral code or does it violate one?"

You wrote in another post:
1000 years ago Islamic Middle East was the intellectual center in the world developing math and astronomy while Christian Europe had it's development stagnated for centuries. 

The Middle Ages as being backward, considering the flowering of cathedral architecture and the incipient development of harmony in Western music, is a gross oversimplification. Please name, however, ONE invention by the Islamic world 1000 years ago. Anything copied from Latin and Greek texts into Arabic do not count.

You seem to believe in automatic progess as time unfolds, judging by another post of yours:
I have hard time understanding just "our" level of existence and while we can say we are not very advanced, it has taken almost 14 billion years to get to this point.

Do you have proof about your 14 billion years claim, or do you take it on faith?


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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2017, 11:54:16 PM »
Still herding goats and camels while practicing subsistence agriculture.

Maybe, at least busy doing something else than fighting.

Please name, however, ONE invention by the Islamic world 1000 years ago.

Algebra ("al-jabr" in Arabic).

Do you have proof about your 14 billion years claim, or do you take it on faith?

Why, do you have a reason to believe otherwise? 13.7 billion years is I believe the estimate at the moment among scientific community.
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Offline nodogen

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2017, 12:41:01 AM »

Why, do you have a reason to believe otherwise? 13.7 billion years is I believe the estimate at the moment among scientific community.

You and your so-called "facts" made up by fake "experts." Pah! The truth is in the bible, not the Lambda-CDM model.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2017, 01:15:27 AM »

Algebra ("al-jabr" in Arabic).


There is a whole history of algebra:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_algebra

As with all other scientific subjects or any other human endeavor, it did not spring from the head of Jove fully clothed. Issac Newton (a devoutly religious person) called the ability to see further than others as "standing on the shoulders of giants".
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2017, 01:37:04 AM »
There is a whole history of algebra:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_algebra

As with all other scientific subjects or any other human endeavor, it did not spring from the head of Jove fully clothed. Issac Newton (a devoutly religious person) called the ability to see further than others as "standing on the shoulders of giants".

Whatever. Believe in the superiority of white Christians (yourself) if you want. Why do I even care?
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2017, 02:12:08 AM »
Whatever. Believe in the superiority of white Christians (yourself) if you want. Why do I even care?

As Mr. Drogulus has accurately pointed out, there is a difference between "belief" and "belief in".
Again, there is a misconception that religion is about blind belief.
It is more about experience and relationships with others and the world around us, ultimately the universe.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2017, 02:17:48 AM »
Algebra ("al-jabr" in Arabic).

Aye.  And the invention of the zero, which only revolutionized mathematics to the degree that . . . Roman numerals are functionally impractical  8)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2017, 02:19:52 AM »
Whatever. Believe in the superiority of white Christians (yourself) if you want. Why do I even care?

It's all of a piece with the White Grievance Movement.  All of the good in the world has to be traced back to white Christian men as the source.  Dark-complected Jesus gets a pass because we worships him, and we can airbrush Him white, anyway.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2017, 05:37:57 AM »
Ironically atheists are more likely to follow the teachings of Jesus than Christian believers.

Well, that is an idea which you may wish to scrutinize closer.

The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

Allow me to suggest, more simply (God bless Occam):

Most Christians are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; most Muslims are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

You may wish to scrutinize your phrasing for biases which grieve the Holy Spirit.

But, as well know, only those who wish to scrutinize, will scrutinize;  or (to paraphrase Fulton Sheen), “No man can be made to scrutinize against his will.”
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2017, 05:50:24 AM »
Islamic inventions:

Mental institute
Tin-glazing
Lusterware
Frequency analysis in cryptology
Vertical-axle windmill
Mercuric chloride
Bridge mill
Hybrid trebuchet
Fritware
Hispano-Moresque ware
Coffee
Iznik pottery
Hookah (waterpipe)
Marching band and military band


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