Author Topic: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread  (Read 3322 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2017, 11:04:13 AM »
Are you serious?

Yes.

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Obedience and free will have next to nothing to do with the religion.


Are you serious?


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At the moment Christian countries in the world have been much more democratic than Islamic countries,

Precisely.

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but how was it 1000 years ago for example?

All things considered, it was the same.

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How would the Islamic countries be today if western Christian countries wouldn't have messed up in the middle east for the last 40 or so years?

I can give you an example of what an Islamic country would have been today had the Christian West not refrained from messing up: Iran. This time, I allow you, nay, I urge you, to Google Iran under the Shah regime as opposed to Iran under the Ayatollah regime --- and please come back and tell me which regime was more friendly to women, science and culture.

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Is Islamic terror a product of Islam or Christianity?

A product of Islam.

The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

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Offline drogulus

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2017, 03:50:05 PM »


The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.



    Muhammed had the unfortunate tendency to be a real person, which placed limits on how good he could be. Jesus is more of an idea, which makes it totally a slam dunk to be good.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 06:45:37 PM »
All things considered, it was the same.

1000 years ago Islamic Middle East was the intellectual center in the world developing math and astronomy while Christian Europe had it's development stagnated for centuries. 

The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

Ironically atheists are more likely to follow the teachings of Jesus than Christian believers.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 06:54:25 PM »
I disagree that this is how religion is defined, but it's true about how religion is practiced, when it is practiced.

I hold the difference between "believe" and "believe in" to be meaningful. I believe Saturn has rings, it would never occur to me to "believe in" their existence. In the first case I state that Saturn has rings, in the second case I point to a belief that I might hold on grounds other than the visual evidence of their existence. But I don't "believe in" the rings, I only believe they are there.

Fair enough, that was a partial definion actually, the relevant part of the discussion.

Belief supported by evidence is actually knowledge rather than belief which requires lack, ignorance or rejection of evidence.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 10:41:53 PM »
How would the Islamic countries be today if western Christian countries wouldn't have messed up in the middle east for the last 40 or so years?

Still herding goats and camels while practicing subsistence agriculture.

Is Islamic terror a product of Islam or Christianity? Both? It's not so black and white.

The question to be asked about religious justification of rampant killing: "Does it fulfill a moral code or does it violate one?"

You wrote in another post:
1000 years ago Islamic Middle East was the intellectual center in the world developing math and astronomy while Christian Europe had it's development stagnated for centuries. 

The Middle Ages as being backward, considering the flowering of cathedral architecture and the incipient development of harmony in Western music, is a gross oversimplification. Please name, however, ONE invention by the Islamic world 1000 years ago. Anything copied from Latin and Greek texts into Arabic do not count.

You seem to believe in automatic progess as time unfolds, judging by another post of yours:
I have hard time understanding just "our" level of existence and while we can say we are not very advanced, it has taken almost 14 billion years to get to this point.

Do you have proof about your 14 billion years claim, or do you take it on faith?


"I write to discover what I know."
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2017, 11:54:16 PM »
Still herding goats and camels while practicing subsistence agriculture.

Maybe, at least busy doing something else than fighting.

Please name, however, ONE invention by the Islamic world 1000 years ago.

Algebra ("al-jabr" in Arabic).

Do you have proof about your 14 billion years claim, or do you take it on faith?

Why, do you have a reason to believe otherwise? 13.7 billion years is I believe the estimate at the moment among scientific community.
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Offline nodogen

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2017, 12:41:01 AM »

Why, do you have a reason to believe otherwise? 13.7 billion years is I believe the estimate at the moment among scientific community.

You and your so-called "facts" made up by fake "experts." Pah! The truth is in the bible, not the Lambda-CDM model.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2017, 01:15:27 AM »

Algebra ("al-jabr" in Arabic).


There is a whole history of algebra:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_algebra

As with all other scientific subjects or any other human endeavor, it did not spring from the head of Jove fully clothed. Issac Newton (a devoutly religious person) called the ability to see further than others as "standing on the shoulders of giants".
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2017, 01:37:04 AM »
There is a whole history of algebra:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_algebra

As with all other scientific subjects or any other human endeavor, it did not spring from the head of Jove fully clothed. Issac Newton (a devoutly religious person) called the ability to see further than others as "standing on the shoulders of giants".

Whatever. Believe in the superiority of white Christians (yourself) if you want. Why do I even care?
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2017, 02:12:08 AM »
Whatever. Believe in the superiority of white Christians (yourself) if you want. Why do I even care?

As Mr. Drogulus has accurately pointed out, there is a difference between "belief" and "belief in".
Again, there is a misconception that religion is about blind belief.
It is more about experience and relationships with others and the world around us, ultimately the universe.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2017, 02:17:48 AM »
Algebra ("al-jabr" in Arabic).

Aye.  And the invention of the zero, which only revolutionized mathematics to the degree that . . . Roman numerals are functionally impractical  8)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2017, 02:19:52 AM »
Whatever. Believe in the superiority of white Christians (yourself) if you want. Why do I even care?

It's all of a piece with the White Grievance Movement.  All of the good in the world has to be traced back to white Christian men as the source.  Dark-complected Jesus gets a pass because we worships him, and we can airbrush Him white, anyway.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2017, 05:37:57 AM »
Ironically atheists are more likely to follow the teachings of Jesus than Christian believers.

Well, that is an idea which you may wish to scrutinize closer.

The bad thing about Christians is that most of them are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; the good thing about Muslims is that most of them are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

Allow me to suggest, more simply (God bless Occam):

Most Christians are far from being as good as Jesus Christ; most Muslims are far from being as bad as Muhammad.

You may wish to scrutinize your phrasing for biases which grieve the Holy Spirit.

But, as well know, only those who wish to scrutinize, will scrutinize;  or (to paraphrase Fulton Sheen), “No man can be made to scrutinize against his will.”
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2017, 05:50:24 AM »
Islamic inventions:

Mental institute
Tin-glazing
Lusterware
Frequency analysis in cryptology
Vertical-axle windmill
Mercuric chloride
Bridge mill
Hybrid trebuchet
Fritware
Hispano-Moresque ware
Coffee
Iznik pottery
Hookah (waterpipe)
Marching band and military band


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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2017, 06:15:37 AM »
Aye.  And the invention of the zero, which only revolutionized mathematics to the degree that . . . Roman numerals are functionally impractical  8)

Zero was part of the development of Middle Ages Islamic math yes, but ancient Egyptians had a symbol for zero in accounting texts almost 4000 years ago.

Well, that is an idea which you may wish to scrutinize closer.

Anytime. I don't have a particular need for the idea to be true, but it ironically seems to be. Explanation to this is perhaps something like this:

- Jesus and religions don't have monopoly over moral which is not objective, but a subjective/collective product of culture and society.
- Atheists are more likely to be free of negativity such as bigotry and hate described in holy texts.

The first point doesn't give religious people advantage, but the second one gives advantage to non-religious people.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2017, 06:50:09 AM »
- Atheists are more likely to be free of negativity such as bigotry and hate [irrelevancy redacted].

And yet, you readily mistake an assertion for a proof.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2017, 04:43:27 PM »
As Mr. Drogulus has accurately pointed out, there is a difference between "belief" and "belief in".
Again, there is a misconception that religion is about blind belief.
It is more about experience and relationships with others and the world around us, ultimately the universe.

     That's a position of strategic withdrawal by religionistas. First, there's a god, a purported fact which is only an experience and relationships when it suits apologists to avoid defending the claim. Some apologists are known to resort to modal logic about possibility and necessity to support a creator god, the scoundrels!

     Believers are not experts on what religion is more about, that's open source stuff. Ex-believers are just as authoritative on the types of subjectivity used to deny the relevance of objective standards. All the tricks are known. You know that special voice adults use when they lie to children, that preachers use, hucksters use and theologians when they squirt their intellectual ink in the eyes of doubters?

     Dawkins says believers are all atheists about the gods they reject out of hand, atheists just extend that to one god more.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2017, 12:30:00 AM »
Dawkins is really an idiot who has no clue about philosophy, religion or history. The "atheist about all gods but one" trope is either a misunderstanding or a miscontrual that could have been cleared up easily if Dawkins was interested in more than attacking the cheapest strawman he could come up with and had bothered to read any introductory text on philosophy of religion. (But of course as a zoologist he is far too smart for that.)
If one has not understood that in the theistic tradition since Plato (or earlier) God is very different from gods, one has not engaged the opposite side but is beating at a cheap strawman. Olympian gods are superhumans but the theistic God is something entirely different. (That's why incarnation and crucifixion were such scandalous ideas for the 1st-4th century environment - they would not be puzzling to such an extent if a superhuman trickster like Hermes was meant with God)
He is not just another thing in the world with uncommon superhuman features (like Apollo would be) but an Absolute Ground on which everything else is dependent, not Supreme Being, but Being itself. One can of course attack this traditional concept along other lines (incoherent, mostly negatively determined, because attributes have only analogical meaning when applied to God, vague...) but the comparison with Apollo or an invisible teapot is sophomoric and completely misses the point. (And Russell must have known this very well when he came up with the silly teapot, because he supposedly also said, if God exists he is a differential equation. Which is also facetious but gets at least one aspect that God has in tradition right, namely that he is a principle at the core of things like a differential equation can be the formal principle of some physical process.)

As for "believing in" and "believing that" this is also very far from a sophism but a distinction that can be made in other fields which is also clearly reflected in the different Greek words doxa = belief that something is the case vs. pistis = "belief in" like in "trusting in somebody" used in the new testament and the early writings of the church. Obviously "believing in" someone, i.e. that someone will not break a promise presupposes the existence of someone.
So this is not an easy way out for a believer by cheap wordplay. But it is still a relevant difference, especially when combined with epistemological questions. One will usually never have conclusive "empirical" evidence that one's partner loves one or that someone we trust in keeps an appointment. But one will often still be certain about it. In fact, we would think someone psychologically disturbed who would constantly demand empirical evidence for trusting his friends or demanding "proof" of his loved ones for their affection. (Apart from such finer Cartesian points that trusting in the reliability of one's senses, one's mental abilities etc. is the presupposition of "believing that" as well.)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2017, 05:42:15 AM »
And yet, you readily mistake an assertion for a proof.

What "proof"? People have been asked about their moral views and religiosity. It turns out that those who label themselves as non-religious/atheists have statistically moral views closer to those of Jesus than those who label themselves as religious. This of course is somewhat ironic and I presented my theory (not a damn proof!) about why this is and you where apparently fast to call me someone who "mistake an assertion for a proof."

Internet is a "fun" place. No matter what you say (fact-based or not), someone attacks you. It takes a Jesus to turn the other cheek.  0:)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2017, 05:49:28 AM »
What "proof"? People have been asked about their moral views and religiosity. It turns out that those who label themselves as non-religious/atheists have statistically moral views closer to those of Jesus than those who label themselves as religious. This of course is somewhat ironic and I presented my theory (not a damn proof!) about why this is and you where apparently fast to call me someone who "mistake an assertion for a proof."

Internet is a "fun" place. No matter what you say (fact-based or not), someone attacks you. It takes a Jesus to turn the other cheek.  0:)

I see this as a discussion.  You don't seem at all comfortable with people disagreeing with you.  My post above was a statement, not "an attack."

Again, the topic at present is, the individual's willingness to scrutinize what he believes.  Thank you for demonstrating that a deficiency in that regard is not at all restricted to the religious.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot