Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations.  (Read 8131 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #200 on: November 10, 2017, 01:44:15 AM »
I fear that this has become so frequent in so many countries that it might be a feature, not a bug...

+ 1.

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #201 on: November 10, 2017, 03:02:16 AM »
A little more seriously, I think that the buffoonish side of people like Johnson or Trump might be accidental but that obviously some kinds of narcissists and sociopaths have almost ideal traits for political (and some other high level public) carreers and are shaped or selected for by the hoops one has to jump through as an ambitious young person wanting such a carreer. This might have been always like that to some extent but the present media-driven situation makes it rather worse.

(Plato might have been wrong about a lot things but he was right that one had to force philosophers to become kings/rulers because they would not want that job...)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Turbot nouveaux

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #202 on: November 11, 2017, 10:28:38 AM »
I read The Guardian for many years and I am well aware of its character; I still see many of its articles online on a daily basis. Since the EU referendum it has carried fake news about Brexit on a daily basis. This includes speculative items from right-wing think tanks, self-interested businessmen, economists etc - all the kind of people it wouldn't have given the time of day to previously.


I have been reading the Guardian regularly for 40 years. If you have also been doing so, you'll know that it has always given house room to a wide range of opinions. I imagine you call Guardian articles 'Fake News' because you don't agree with them?

By the way, I am no knee-jerk remainer - I had to think long and hard about which way I would vote in the 2016 referendum.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 08:31:58 AM by Turbot nouveaux »

Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #203 on: November 12, 2017, 05:29:06 AM »
A plea for an extension of the negotiations in The Guardian, something May is effectively ruling out by proposing the inclusion of fixed exit date in the Brexit Bill:

Quote
A crisis point is looming and, if only to avoid total meltdown, it is time for a time-out on Brexit. It is time to stop the clock. Common sense demands it; the empirical evidence dictates it. This is not to say the decision to leave the EU should be reversed. This is not to say last year’s referendum result should be ignored. This is not to say that a second referendum should be held, although the case in favour, if and when an exit deal is agreed, is steadily strengthening. It is to say that the negotiations have reached an obvious, perilous impasse and may become disastrously counterproductive.

It is in Britain’s and Europe’s interest to set back the 2019 departure date to give more time and space to resolve outstanding issues. It is the government’s responsibility to halt the needless damage already being done to the living standards and life prospects of ordinary people. A Brexit freeze would allow both sides to step back and take stock. It would mitigate the damaging uncertainty affecting businesses and investors and open the way, perhaps, for a more realistic transition timetable. It would calm, for a while, the arguments over who owes what to whom.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/11/observer-view-on-britains-shambolic-brexit-negotiations

Q
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 05:34:37 AM by Que »
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Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #204 on: November 12, 2017, 05:42:53 AM »


Is the DUP going to follow May off the cliff as depicted here?

The EU is proposing to keep Northern Ireland in the customs union, an arrangement that is ruled out by Brexiteers.

Q
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 06:20:02 AM by Que »
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Online Spineur

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #205 on: November 12, 2017, 07:12:34 AM »
This tory government is looking more and more like Florentine Pazzi conjuration in the 15th century.  A dagger waiting behind every door.  How long can Mrs May endure this situation ?
A woman voice glides like the wind
Of black, of damp, of night
And all it touches in this flight
Suddenly is over.

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Offline nodogen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2017, 01:51:36 PM »
Apparently the Brexiteers aren't all stupid; they've just been taken in by tweets from Russian trolls spreading nonsense across tinterweb.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/14/how-400-russia-run-fake-accounts-posted-bogus-brexit-tweets

PS Doesn't Theresa May look fabulous in that nightie?

« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 01:54:43 PM by nodogen »

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2017, 02:19:16 PM »
Remember John Redwood's recent exhortation to the chancellor to make the Treasury's forecasts more optimistic?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/14/john-redwood-brexit-money-britain-eu

Oh dear!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 02:21:02 PM by Mr. Minnow »

Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2017, 12:39:19 AM »
David Davis warns EU not to put 'politics above prosperity' in Brexit talks

Perhaps the UK government should take heed of its own advice..... ::) The whole concept of Brexit is about putting politics over prosperity....

It is estimated that Dutch economy will take a medium term hit of 4% of GDP in case of a hard Brexit....
The suggestion that the major EU trading partners like the Danes, the Dutch, the Belgiums and the Germans are not sufficiently considering their economic interests, is simply ludicrous.... ???

What the UK demands are free handouts for a non member and continued cherry picked cooperation without legal guarantees and independent scrutiny, which amounts to effectively undermining the fundamentals of the EU.
That's not going to happen, not even if Brexit will set off an economic shock wave through other European economies....

Q

PS
Quote
“We are the same country we have always been. With the same values and same principles we have always had,” he said

Lies.... The UK has and will be fundamentally changed by Brexit and will be never be the same, not even if Brexit is stopped or the UK will rejoin the EU in the future. Brexit will be a turning point in British history, and in the history of Europe for that matter....
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:49:57 AM by Que »
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2017, 06:30:33 AM »
David Davis warns EU not to put 'politics above prosperity' in Brexit talks

Perhaps the UK government should take heed of its own advice..... ::) The whole concept of Brexit is about putting politics over property....

We've had Bernard Jenkin accusing others of only listening to those voices that confirm their own preconceptions and being blind to the facts. Now Davis saying the EU shouldn't put politics before prosperity. All we need now is Boris Johnson warning of the folly of touring the country in a big red bus with a misleading and undeliverable promise plastered all over it. 

Quote
What the UK demands are free handouts for a non member and continued cherry picked cooperation without legal guarantees and independent scrutiny, which amounts to effectively undermining the fundamentals of the EU.

And when this miraculous deal doesn't happen, it will all be the EU's fault for being unreasonable and setting out to punish us for leaving. This narrative has already started.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2017, 06:35:37 AM »




Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2017, 08:57:25 AM »
 :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

What I (still) admire about Britishness: keep your sense of humour in any situation...  8)

Q
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Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #212 on: November 18, 2017, 04:26:35 AM »
I am not optimistic...

Firstly, Ireland will block any deal that doesn't involve an open border with Northern Ireland, which would require a special status for NI that is unacceptable for the DUP.

Secondly, the UK might be willing to pay up the divorce bill, but only if it gets the fantasy end deal it has demanded right from the start.

Seems like a no go to me.....  ::)

Q
À chacun son goût.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #213 on: November 18, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »
The whole thing reminds me of a very context-fit joke.

During the Napoleonic Wars, a British battle ship engages a French one. In the heat of the battle, the English captain shouts to the French one: "You Frenchmen fight for money, we Englishmen fight for honour!" To which the French captain retorts: "Why, of course! People fight for what they lack!"

 ;D ;D ;D

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:15:58 AM by Florestan »
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Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #214 on: November 18, 2017, 08:41:11 AM »
I forsee Hong Kong handover like images: the last ferry to Albion leaving Calais at the stroke of midnight (mid-European time, mind you)  while the band plays Rule, Brittania.

After that nostalgic scene, I don’t see why the UK should be worried about long lines of trucks: trade between the UK and (the rest of) Europe will take a nose dive anyway....

Q
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 09:14:38 AM by Que »
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #215 on: November 18, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
I am not optimistic...

Firstly, Ireland will block any deal that doesn't involve an open border with Northern Ireland, which would require a special status for NI that is unacceptable for the DUP.

Secondly, the UK might be willing to pay up the divorce bill, but only if it gets the fantasy end deal it has demanded right from the start.

Seems like a no go to me.....  ::)

Q


Both valid points, but the above problems are as nothing compared to the fact that any deal will have to be acceptable to the Tory party. The problem with that is that the Brexiteer fanatics will veto any deal that they deem too soft, while the less insane wing of the party will do the same to any deal they deem too hard. It's very hard to see any deal that both could sign up to.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #216 on: November 18, 2017, 04:40:37 PM »
:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

What I (still) admire about Britishness: keep your sense of humour in any situation...  8)

Q

The disturbing thing is that the Austin Brexit spoof is not even that much of an exaggeration. Since the referendum I've seen plenty of interviews with leave voters who, when asked about the obvious risks of Brexit, utter such pearls of wisdom as "we're stronger than we think we are", "we'll find a way to sort it out", "there'll be a few bumps in the road but basically we'll be fine", and of course that old favourite "they need us more than we need them" (though that last one seems to crop up much less frequently now, perhaps because assurances from Farage and co that the likes of German car manufacturers would come riding to our rescue have failed to materialise).

Considering that Brexit has been driven largely by the right, it's striking just how much has changed. The British right used to pride itself on its pragmatism: their view was that unlike the left, and especially those woolly-minded continentals, we Brits could be proud of the fact that we didn't go in for reckless, grandiose political projects driven by half-baked, fanatical ideology. No, we took the cautious, rational, small-c conservative approach.

And yet what they're now doing with Brexit is as reckless, half-baked, ideologically fanatical and unconservative as it gets. They campaigned for this extraordinarily risky outcome yet made no preparation at all for what they'd do if they won. Any plans they had went no further than spouting "take back control" at every available opportunity, a slogan about on a par with "Make America Great Again". It's incredible.   

Offline André

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #217 on: November 18, 2017, 06:05:08 PM »
The bigger the mistake, the more adamantly voters will refuse to consider - let alone admit - having been wrong. We can see that on both sides of the pond.

Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #218 on: November 19, 2017, 01:49:51 AM »
The bigger the mistake, the more adamantly voters will refuse to consider - let alone admit - having been wrong. We can see that on both sides of the pond.

So very true.... Who's going to admit to a mistake of that magnitude, induced by ignorance, frustration, fear, false sentiments of nostalgic grandeur and deliberate deceit?  ???

And in the aftermath, when consequences become irrefutable, nobody will be able to recall ever having voted in favour of Brexit in the first place...  ::)



Considering that Brexit has been driven largely by the right, it's striking just how much has changed. The British right used to pride itself on its pragmatism: their view was that unlike the left, and especially those woolly-minded continentals, we Brits could be proud of the fact that we didn't go in for reckless, grandiose political projects driven by half-baked, fanatical ideology. No, we took the cautious, rational, small-c conservative approach.

And yet what they're now doing with Brexit is as reckless, half-baked, ideologically fanatical and unconservative as it gets. They campaigned for this extraordinarily risky outcome yet made no preparation at all for what they'd do if they won. Any plans they had went no further than spouting "take back control" at every available opportunity, a slogan about on a par with "Make America Great Again". It's incredible.   

What I find interesting is that Labour's left wing (Corbynistas) stuck to their traditional script of "reckless, grandiose political projects driven by half-baked, fanatical ideology".... Which means Brexit is driven by both of the outer sides of the political spectrum with the more sensible middle sandwiched in between, abondended by a misguided or intimidated electorate.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but if I were British I wouldn't just worry about Brexit but also about what comes next....

Q
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 01:52:01 AM by Que »
À chacun son goût.

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #219 on: November 19, 2017, 02:35:32 AM »
The bigger the mistake, the more adamantly voters will refuse to consider - let alone admit - having been wrong. We can see that on both sides of the pond.

How very true.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

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