Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations.  (Read 20524 times)

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Offline knight66

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #500 on: May 06, 2018, 10:12:43 PM »
Well, even 18 months later it was clear a lot of politicians were still clueless by their proclamations of how we could or could not do such and such in or out of a customs union. They were also making daft comments on what the likes of Switzerland and Norway could and could not do. That included Corbyn very recently. If they can’t get their heads round this, they can’t lead.

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Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #501 on: May 09, 2018, 10:59:11 PM »
How predictable...  ::)

Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn declines to support plan to keep UK in single market

"His spokesman said keeping the UK in the single market as it stands, could undermine Mr Corbyn’s plans to intervene in British industry and reverse privatisation if he wins power."

Off course, Corbyn's grandiose plans with British industry....Good luck with that when the economy takes a nose dive...
And there is no reason why EU rules would prevent the reversal of privatisations per se, as long as fair competition is maintained... Does Corbyn think that British protectionism will go down well with future trading partners?  ::)

He basically makes the same mistake as the Tories: an isolated nationalistic agenda without giving consideration of the consequences for international aspects of the British economy. The fantasy of "splendid isolation"..
Corbyn wants access to the Single Market without accepting the rules on fair competition, sure...... :D

So, either Corbyn needs to change his mind or Labour needs to change its leadership, or else the Commons' vote on the Single Market that was designed by the Lords is dead on arrival.....

Q
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 12:33:37 AM by Que »
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Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #502 on: May 09, 2018, 11:04:17 PM »
And some see a 2nd referendum as the better way out instead of relying on Corbyn:

Pro-Europeans, don’t fight to stay in the single market. It’s the wrong battle.
Forget the amendment the Lords has voted for. A people’s vote on the Brexit deal is the true prize – all else is distraction


A 2nd referendum seems to me hard to achieve, and probably hard to win...
The electorate will likely be even more confused by the current situation than it was the last time around.

Q
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 12:32:07 AM by Que »
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Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #503 on: May 11, 2018, 10:39:59 PM »
Neil Kinnock on Labour and the Single Market:

"The objections to supporting EEA membership from some in the upper reaches of the Labour Party seem to centre on claims that it would either restrict a Labour government’s freedom of socialist action, or that it would mean ignoring our supporters who voted to leave the EU, or both.

The first of these claims is based on falsehood. The EEA is open to member states of the EU or the European Free Trade Association. Neither the EEA nor the EU are part of the socialist superstate of neocon delusion or of the global capitalist adventure playground of infantile leftist illusion.

The EEA is a mixed-economy agreement of 31 democracies “to promote continuous and balanced strengthening of trade and economic relations between the contracting parties with equal conditions of competition and the respect of the same rules”.

None of that prevents public ownership, social initiative, improving tax justice, promoting employment or advancing the welfare state – as so many instances in current member states show."


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/neil-kinnock-corbyn-single-market-brexit-eu-labour-row-a8347606.html

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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #504 on: May 12, 2018, 01:43:39 PM »
And there is no reason why EU rules would prevent the reversal of privatisations per se, as long as fair competition is maintained... D
Q

I can't say the fair competition rules are something I've read a great deal about, but as I understand it there's nothing in them that says particular public services have to be privatised, or that a privatised public service can't be renationalised: it's just that if a service is privatised, then fair competition must apply. If that's right, I'm struggling to see why Corbyn thinks there's a problem.

Both main parties seem to be heading for a crunch point soon. For Labour that's the Commons vote on the EEA amendment passed in the Lords. If Corbyn doesn't back it there will be real trouble, this time quite possibly from the membership rather than just the malcontents on the backbenches. For the Tories, it's which customs option they decide to back. Both have been rejected by the EU already so in that sense it's academic, but whichever one gets the nod is going to alienate a big chunk of her own party. Up until now I've been sceptical of the idea that Brexit could end up splitting the two big parties, but such is the scale of the divisions in each party I'm beginning to wonder if it just might happen.

It's incredible to see the Brexiteers still spouting the same bollocks as two years ago, but special congratulations must go to Ruth Lea, who in barely two minutes managed a full house in Brexit Bullshit Bingo on the subject of the single market and Irish border:

"I can't see why a technological solution can't work."

"Who cares if there's a bit of smuggling across the Irish border?"

"The EU's stance is just a negotiating ploy."

"What about the way trade is conducted between the EU and Norway?" (Norway is in the single market and even then has border checks with Sweden)

"....or the trade between the EU and Switzerland?" (Switzerland is also in the single market, which the Brexiteers insist we have to leave)

"What about the example of the US/Canada border?"  (border checks again)

"Of course a technological solution can work, stop being such a pessimist."

It's hard to tell if they genuinely believe this crap, or know it's bullshit but are grimly sticking to it so they can blame the EU when it all goes tits up. 
   
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 02:45:50 PM by Mr. Minnow »

Online Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #505 on: May 12, 2018, 01:58:13 PM »

Up until now I've been sceptical of the idea that Brexit could end up splitting the two big parties, but such is the scale of the divisions in each party I'm beginning to wonder if it just might happen.

I'm starting to wonder if a 2nd referendum would be a way out for both divided parties?

Q
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #506 on: May 12, 2018, 02:35:54 PM »
I'm starting to wonder if a 2nd referendum would be a way out for both divided parties?

Q

It might be something they would go for if they could see no other way out, but whether it would actually solve anything I'm not so sure. The 2016 referendum showed just how lousy a device it is when you have a public which has been deliberately and systematically lied to over many years. Then you have to look at current polling, which shows a small shift to Remain, but basically a country still split down the middle. If Leave were to win again that would be it, we'd be out for the foreseeable future and the Brexit ultras would be claiming a mandate for the hardest possible Brexit. Even if Remain were to win, unless there's a significant shift in the polls the margin of victory would probably be a narrow one - certainly not a win decisive enough to settle the issue, as happened in the 1975 referendum. That would just put us back to square one, except we'd also have Farage back and banging on about "unfinished business" (which is how he said he'd describe a narrow Remain win during the 2016 campaign when he thought Leave would lose - as luck would have it, a 52-48 victory was his example of a narrow Remain win which would constitute unfinished business).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 02:39:55 PM by Mr. Minnow »

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #507 on: May 12, 2018, 11:49:33 PM »
You are right, a new referendum with any other result than remaining in the EU would replicate the mess resulting from the previous one....  ::)

I'll be curious to see if Labour can pull off a leadership change....
Unless something happens on the side of Labour, May's govt is going to sleep walk into Brexit.
With or without a transition deal, depending on whether the UK agrees on a special status for NI.

I expect any split of parties or any other form of realignment of British politics after Brexit.

Q
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #508 on: May 13, 2018, 05:01:42 AM »
You are right, a new referendum with any other result than remaining in the EU would replicate the mess resulting from the previous one....  ::)

More specifically, anything other than a decisive Remain win would replicate the current mess. I'd say it would need to be at least 60-40, and preferably more than that. No sign of it yet though.

Quote
I'll be curious to see if Labour can pull off a leadership change....
Unless something happens on the side of Labour, May's govt is going to sleep walk into Brexit.


It really depends on the views of the membership, which until now has been very pro-Corbyn. If Corbyn changes his policy to supporting the EEA amendment that's fine. If not, the membership might well start wondering if a change of leader is needed. It's not certain though, and even if it happened it's hard to see who would succeed him. Ideally it would be someone on the same page as Corbyn in terms of domestic policy, but also willing to offer a more pro-European policy. There's no way the self-styled "moderates" would get someone to their liking: the membership is rightly furious with them for the way they've sought to undermine Corbyn from day one, and in any case I don't see a Tory-lite candidate getting much traction in the country in the current political climate.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #509 on: May 14, 2018, 04:29:14 PM »
Saw a bit of tonight's Newsnight, talking about the Irish border. Their political editor said that one cabinet minister was annoyed with Michel Barnier for visiting the border and had said "does Barnier really want to be responsible for restarting the Troubles?". So it would seem that the UK government's inability to even agree its negotiating position, let alone come up with a workable solution for the Irish border - which has only become a problem because of Brexit in the first place - is Barnier's fault. It's so obvious when you think about it, isn't it?

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #510 on: May 14, 2018, 09:15:42 PM »
Yes, the Brexiteers better brush up their blame game.... because the signs still are that the Irish are going to play hard ball.....  ::)

Since any transition deal needs consent of the European Parliament and ratification by all member states, the deadline is quickly approaching.If there is no deal this summer, it's going to be an immediate hard Brexit.


The EU’s negotiator, Michel Barnier, said in Brussels that “a little progress” had been made in talks since March, but “some in the UK have yet to assume all the consequences of their decisions” – including, as he noted, “leaving 750 international agreements”.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 09:22:47 PM by Que »
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #511 on: May 15, 2018, 03:17:05 AM »
Yes, the Brexiteers better brush up their blame game.... because the signs still are that the Irish are going to play hard ball.....  ::)

As is the EU, which has stated clearly that Ireland has its full support on the border issue. But it's not a problem according to Rees Mogg:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/15/pessimism-about-customs-impasse-after-rees-mogg-remarks

Quote
Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Rees-Mogg said May “ought not to take Brussels too seriously about the Irish question” when seeking a customs deal.

“The commission hides behind faux concern for the Irish border undermining the single market ...

Yes Jacob, why would the EU really be bothered about protecting the integrity of one of the fundamental pillars of the EU? It's obviously just a ploy. No need to take it seriously at all. What could possibly go wrong? Dear god.

This from the man who said a few days ago that he didn't need to visit the border to understand the problem because he talked to the DUP.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:47:36 AM by Mr. Minnow »

Offline André

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #512 on: May 15, 2018, 06:03:10 AM »
Dardanelles is forgotten, Gallipoli is forgiven. Brexiteers to eat more doners, less fish&chips as May and Erdogan waltz together, touting expansion of trade talks.


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/president-erdogan-theresa-may-post-brexit-trade-turkey-a8351531.html?wpmm=1&wpisrc=nl_todayworld