Author Topic: Brexit Negotiations.  (Read 28833 times)

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Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #560 on: July 07, 2018, 06:13:00 AM »
“We will try to receive it as well as possible but from what we understand it is still a carve-out of the single market,” said the source, describing May’s proposed single market for goods as “a lot of fudge with a cherry on top”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/07/eu-diplomats-theresa-may-brexit-compromise

Yep....  8)

Q
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Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #561 on: July 07, 2018, 11:25:46 PM »
On the Brexit blog by Richard North:

Brexit: a dog's breakfast

He seems to assume there will be a hard Brexit with a possible transition period.

Q
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #562 on: July 08, 2018, 05:36:14 AM »
On the Brexit blog by Richard North:

Brexit: a dog's breakfast

He seems to assume there will be a hard Brexit with a possible transition period.

Q

He may well be right. If the EU rejects May's proposal - and given the blatant cherry-picking involved I don't see how it could possibly accept it - the narrative will be that we bent over backwards to compromise, while the EU was intransigent and only interested in punishing us. So hey, we did try to get a deal, but the EU wasn't interested. We then presumably head for a hard Brexit unless failure to reach a deal produces a major swing against Brexit in public opinion.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #563 on: July 08, 2018, 04:56:38 PM »
David Davis and two other Brexit ministers have resigned - that's three ministers out of five. Perhaps the Department for Exiting the EU should be renamed the Department for Exiting the Department for Exiting the EU.

When this farce first started there was speculation the EU would set out to make an example of the UK in order to discourage other countries from considering leaving. As it is, there's been no need to - the UK has done that very effectively itself. Comparing the way the EU has handled it with our government's conduct is just embarrassing. It's like a full strength Barcelona playing a pub team whose players don't even understand the rules of the game but are still convinced they're going to win. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 04:58:44 PM by Mr. Minnow »

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #564 on: July 08, 2018, 09:06:32 PM »
This is shocking.... ???

When after two years the UK govt finally picks a strategy, it starts falling apart....

It seems the pub team, after just standing there in the field, arguing amongst themselves and randomly trying to kick back balls that came in its direction, has decided to head back for the pub!  :D

All the EU now has to do is sit tight and wait for things to unfold. The approach of not rejecting the free market for goods scheme right out of hand and give off mildly positive and encouraging signals, proofs to be a very clever one.

Q

PS Everybody ready for the sequel to this drama, in which Jeremy Corbyn tries to get a à la carte internal market sans competition (= state aid) rules?  ::)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 09:22:47 PM by Que »
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #565 on: July 08, 2018, 10:58:07 PM »
Total shambles.

You couldn't make it up.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 11:07:39 AM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #566 on: July 09, 2018, 09:57:23 PM »
Total shambles.

You couldn't make it up.

Indeed. The bizarre course of the Brexit process has exceded my wildest expectations....  ???

But someone needs to do something about it pretty soon, or else all the initial Titanic jokes will become a grim reality!  :(

Q
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 07:52:35 AM by Que »
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Offline Christo

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #567 on: July 10, 2018, 04:11:29 AM »
'The Brexiteers — led largely by Mr. Johnson — sold the country a series of lies in the lead up to the June 2016 referendum ... because neither Mr. Johnson nor his fellow leader of the Leave campaign, Michael Gove, intended, wanted or expected to win. Because they were confident that the Leave campaign was a hopeless cause, they were free to make ridiculous claims that they had no expectation of ever having to fulfill.'
www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region
And of course they're not leaving the sinking ship now in order to protest, let alone to really fight for a 'hard' Brexit, but because they know that any type of Brexit will be a disaster and they want to escape responsibility.

… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #568 on: July 10, 2018, 05:26:18 AM »
'The Brexiteers — led largely by Mr. Johnson — sold the country a series of lies in the lead up to the June 2016 referendum ... because neither Mr. Johnson nor his fellow leader of the Leave campaign, Michael Gove, intended, wanted or expected to win. Because they were confident that the Leave campaign was a hopeless cause, they were free to make ridiculous claims that they had no expectation of ever having to fulfill.'
www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region
And of course they're not leaving the sinking ship now in order to protest, let alone to really fight for a 'hard' Brexit, but because they know that any type of Brexit will be a disaster and they want to escape responsibility.

Yes I agree - my mind recalls this entertaining, though increasingly prophetic, spoof (foul language):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a6HNXtdvVQ
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Online The new erato

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #569 on: July 10, 2018, 05:44:15 AM »
Not foul enough, I think.

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #570 on: July 10, 2018, 08:09:06 AM »
Reminds me of the comment my (American) wife made on the night Donald Trump was elected president:

"This is going to be a sh*t show of EPIC proportions...."

Q


PS Is this another case of "be careful what you wish for"?  ::)


EU negotiator Michel Barnier says 80% of Brexit deal is agreed


Is the EU going to agree to any remotely acceptable proposition by the UK govt, just to get rid of the issue?  ::)
I"m afraid that would reflect the mood in many European capitals....

Q
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 11:01:50 AM by Que »
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Offline Alek Hidell

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #571 on: July 10, 2018, 11:18:14 AM »
Reminds me of the comment my (American) wife made on the night Donald Trump was elected president:

"This going to be a sh*t show of EPIC proportions...."

Q

Yep. It's been most enlightening to read through this thread from here in the U.S. where the Trump clown show heedlessly trudges on (I had not previously read much at all on Brexit and had only the vaguest notions of what's at stake, though from the start I figured it was a grave error) and be struck by how frighteningly similar our political situations are. Reactionaries with a contempt for "experts" and no actual plan or ability to govern, pie-in-the-sky promises that can never be kept (and when they fail to materialize, chalking it up to a failure of nerve), willfully ignorant voters responding to phony populism and nationalist yammering and thinking their vote was simply a "lark" with no real-world consequences, and even Russian meddling ... boy, the Brits have it all too.
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist." - Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline André

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #572 on: July 10, 2018, 12:06:03 PM »
Europe will see both sides of Trump in the coming days. He’ll roar and threaten in Brussels, then coo and meow in Moscow.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #573 on: July 10, 2018, 03:08:31 PM »
Reminds me of the comment my (American) wife made on the night Donald Trump was elected president:

"This is going to be a sh*t show of EPIC proportions...."

Q


PS Is this another case of "be careful what you wish for"?  ::)


EU negotiator Michel Barnier says 80% of Brexit deal is agreed


Is the EU going to agree to any remotely acceptable proposition by the UK govt, just to get rid of the issue?  ::)
I"m afraid that would reflect the mood in many European capitals....

Q

I think "remotely acceptable" are the key words there. If the EU doesn't compromise on cherry-picking the four freedoms for member states, I can't see why they would do so for a third country. Reports in the UK media over the last few days have stated that EU sources have said that they don't want to be seen to immediately shoot down the Chequers position for fear of weakening May even further and making an already difficult situation even worse. So the public tone is more positive and the EU may try to move a bit where it can. But after Barnier's recent remarks about the fundamental importance of the single market I cannot imagine they are going to compromise on that, in which case either May has to give more ground or we get no deal.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #574 on: July 10, 2018, 03:28:53 PM »
Yep. It's been most enlightening to read through this thread from here in the U.S. where the Trump clown show heedlessly trudges on (I had not previously read much at all on Brexit and had only the vaguest notions of what's at stake, though from the start I figured it was a grave error) and be struck by how frighteningly similar our political situations are.

It is indeed uncanny, but at least you have a chance to vote Trump out. How we get out of the Brexit mess I have no idea.

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Reactionaries with a contempt for "experts" and no actual plan or ability to govern

The "no actual plan" part is especially staggering, because Brexit is the biggest political upheaval in the UK in living memory and many of the leading Brexiters have been campaigning for Brexit for years - decades in some cases. And yet, despite that they have never bothered to produce a rigorous, coherent, thoroughly researched plan explaining exactly what they want to achieve and how they think they can get there. They're great at meaningless slogans like "take back control" and crying betrayal at the drop of a hat. But ask them for a detailed plan and all you get is tumbleweed and the sound of crickets. Anyone who asks them to address the details and enormous problems of Brexit is then dismissed as a treacherous saboteur, one of those experts that can't be trusted, or both.

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pie-in-the-sky promises that can never be kept (and when they fail to materialize, chalking it up to a failure of nerve)

Not only a failure of nerve, but also the result of fifth column Remainers sabotaging their precious Brexit. And yes, terms like "fifth column" and "saboteurs" are the sort of language in which this "debate" is conducted.
 
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willfully ignorant voters responding to phony populism and nationalist yammering

To be fair, some leave voters voted leave out of a desperation to be heard, although the extent of that has been overplayed. There were plenty of more affluent voters who had no such excuse and still swallowed the bullshit.

Quote
and thinking their vote was simply a "lark" with no real-world consequences, and even Russian meddling ... boy, the Brits have it all too.

Indeed we do. It can't end well, and it wouldn't surprise me if it leads to the break-up of the UK, to say nothing of the economic impact.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #575 on: July 16, 2018, 09:55:28 AM »
There was a time when the Brexiters told us that Brexit would lead us to the "sunlit uplands". And now? Well, if Soubry is to be believed, this is where we are:

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1018896316590673920

How things change. If true - and it's plausible enough from a party which has form on declaring large scale job losses a price worth paying in pursuit of its agenda - they're willing to sacrifice the jobs of vast numbers of people on the altar of their own ideology. Though not their own jobs of course. Such stirring patriotism.

In other news, May has prevented the ERG staging a show of parliamentary strength by, er.....caving in to their demands. All the ERG amendments to the trade bill have been accepted, even though they leave May's position dead in the water. That's the way to prevent a defeat - surrender first. Flawless logic.

No deal may now be the most likely outcome. There doesn't seem to be a majority in parliament for any type of Brexit and the EU won't accept the Chequers position. Barring a miracle we appear to be utterly, utterly screwed.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 10:01:18 AM by Mr. Minnow »

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #576 on: July 16, 2018, 12:38:53 PM »

No deal may now be the most likely outcome. There doesn't seem to be a majority in parliament for any type of Brexit and the EU won't accept the Chequers position. Barring a miracle we appear to be utterly, utterly screwed.

Frankly my money was on an extension of negotiations and a 2nd referendum or new general elections...

But I"m perplexed by UK politics... May has ruled out a referendum and keeps her government afloat by giving in to the hardliners.
A hard Brexit seems therefore indeed increasingly likely....  ???

Q
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:42:58 PM by Que »
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #577 on: July 16, 2018, 02:51:15 PM »
Frankly my money was on an extension of negotiations and a 2nd referendum or new general elections...

But I"m perplexed by UK politics... May has ruled out a referendum and keeps her government afloat by giving in to the hardliners.
A hard Brexit seems therefore indeed increasingly likely....  ???

Q

You're certainly not alone in being perplexed by UK politics!

The fundamental problem is that despite the fact that Brexit has already turned into an utter shitshow before we've even left - and will do so even further once the EU makes it clear that it won't accept the Chequers position - and despite the fact that the Brexiters' promises have evaporated on contact with reality, most leave voters are still convinced it's going to be great. You would think that the way it's going would give them pause for thought, but it hasn't. There was an article in the Guardian a few days ago which summed it up: a leave voter stated he believed Brexit would not cause damage, because, as he put it, "my faith is strong". That's what Brexit now seems to be - it's more like a fervent religious belief based on blind faith rather than a rationally thought through political position. The only reaction of such people to the ongoing farce is "just get on with it". They don't want to know about the details or complexities of Brexit, they just want to leave. If it's running into trouble it must be because the "metropolitan/liberal elite" or "remainer establishment" is trying to undermine it - it can't possibly be because Brexit itself is a really bloody stupid idea. They really are like a man who jumps off a cliff and says "so far so good!" because he hasn't hit the ground yet.

This should not really be too surprising: I said above that one of the most extraordinary things about the Brexiters is that they've spent years campaigning for the biggest political upheaval in Britain in living memory yet have never come up with a properly thought through, detailed plan explaining exactly how they think they can turn it into reality. That's no accident: they don't do detail, because if they did they would have to acknowledge the monumental problems and risks of Brexit. Coming up with a plan of their own would also mean they might be held accountable, and they have no intention of letting that happen. It's much easier to talk in empty platitudes and cry betrayal when someone else tries to come up with a workable plan for Brexit. If the leading Brexiters themselves don't do detail, accountability or responsibility, it's not that surprising that the same attitude is so prevalent among those taken in by their bullshit. Indeed, it seems merely asking them to produce a workable plan of their own is itself construed as an attempt to thwart Brexit by getting it bogged down in all that tiresome detail. The Irish border is the issue that sums it up - my experience is that they're not interested in it except insofar as it affects Brexit, and naturally  the problem must be Brussels using Ireland to hold us to ransom. It's definitely not because the Brexiters themselves never bothered to give it any thought. Oh no.

Until this situation changes, many politicians who can see what's coming when the ship hits the iceberg will continue to keep quiet for fear of being portrayed as "defying the will of the people", "saboteurs", "traitors", and so on. Even if we had a referendum tomorrow it's possible leave would win again, and even a remain win would be nowhere near convincing enough to settle the issue. Meanwhile millions of Brits are cheering on the iceberg.




Online The new erato

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #578 on: July 18, 2018, 04:21:18 AM »
My belief is strong, your execution is weak. Shame on you, and damn the facts.

Offline Que

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Re: Brexit Negotiations.
« Reply #579 on: August 01, 2018, 12:37:20 AM »
More news from Brexit-Britain, where the implications of a no deal hard Brexit are the talk of the day:

Brexit: panic is the right thing to do

In his blog Richard North IMO quite rightly downplays the risk of immediate shortages of food and medicines.
Any imports into the UK won't be hindered by Brexit per se - the countries of the EU will be happy to continue to export their products to the UK. The problem lies much more in obstacles to export goods and services from the UK to the EU.

The real crisis is and will be one of political incompetence and paralysis, hence his conclusion that it is time to panic...

Q
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 12:41:56 AM by Que »
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