Author Topic: Discussions in D minor  (Read 1040 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Discussions in D minor
« on: June 06, 2017, 09:49:30 AM »
 Discussions in D minor
Hi All,

This is another piece I've been working on in the last few months. I'm fairly happy with the music but the score is a mess and the dynamics in particular I could really use some help with, both in getting Sibelius to play it better, and in the actual musicians score. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I should go about getting a better sound, I would really welcome some tips. my music theory is not very good and all tips on glaring mistakes are really welcome too.

As always I welcome suggestions and comments, good or bad on the music too. I have to say I like it as it is, but there is always room for improvement!

Thanks in advance for listening.

Mark

https://www.dropbox.com/s/podfpbm41vqoi5a/Discussions_in_D_minor.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/io0ndaouobm76v1/Discussions%20in%20D%20minor.pdf?dl=0



« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 12:15:59 PM by MarkMcD »

Offline snyprrr

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10703
  • SQs, PQs, PQTs, PTs, VSs, Berlioz-Xenakis/Aperghis
  • Currently Listening to:
    Things that are crisp and spritely vs. things that are thick and creamy
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 11:13:23 AM »
link no worky




Hey, I thought this was really going to be a discussion concerning Dminor :o


I don't get the real differences between Dminor, Cminor, Bbminor, and Gminor. I don't get the meta reasons why someone love D, and another A, and then another E.

I know why wind players play in Bb and Eb.

I know why keyboardists love Eb minor, and A minor/C Major...


BUT

taking those limitations away, why does someone choose one key over another?
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 12:29:40 PM »
Hi Snyprrr,

Sorry for the double disappointment  :P  1 for not being a discussion in D minor, and then that the links don't work  ???

I repaired the links so they should work now if you fancy taking a listen anyway.

As for the other matter, I really think it's all down to personal taste.  I know as you say that certain instruments are tuned to sound better in certain keys, and you can also find lists and lists of descriptions of the character and mood of each key, but I always think that's a very personal interpretation too.  I'm sure there's science behind it, but D minor for instance is supposed to have melancholic, sad flavour, full of unfulfilled longing, but it's quite possible to write a piece in D minor, that has none of those characteristics (although it is one of my favourite keys, and I do tend to think it has those characteristics that I mentioned).

Anyway, I hope you will give my piece a listen now the links are mended.

Mark

Offline PerfectWagnerite

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3213
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 12:41:09 PM »
link no worky




Hey, I thought this was really going to be a discussion concerning Dminor :o


I don't get the real differences between Dminor, Cminor, Bbminor, and Gminor. I don't get the meta reasons why someone love D, and another A, and then another E.

I know why wind players play in Bb and Eb.

I know why keyboardists love Eb minor, and A minor/C Major...


BUT

taking those limitations away, why does someone choose one key over another?
That is probably for historical reasons. Baroque and Classical era composers each have their specific keys for expressing certain emotions - i.e. C-minor with Beethoven and D-minor and G-minor with Mozart. It also has something to do with the tuning system. In those eras on a keyboard using the well-tempered system different keys sounded differently from one another. Although if you take a modern piano and tune it to one of the well-tempered systems in Bach or Beethoven's time I would be hard-pressed to hear any difference. But musicians hear differently. In the equal-temperament system other than the difference in pitch there really is not much difference. But if you have absolute pitch (and a lot of composers and musicians do) then the difference in pitch and hence in key will matter to you.


Offline Mahlerian

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1659
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 01:10:16 PM »
taking those limitations away, why does someone choose one key over another?

I have a particular and inexplicable (to me too) love of B minor.  The idea of B minor, the sound of music in B minor...damned if I know why.

Schoenberg loved D minor, which is why it haunts so many of his works from the beginning of the career to the end, while both of Mahler's choral finales are in E-flat major.  If a musical idea occurs to you in a particular key, you'll probably use it (unless it's impractical on the instrument/s).

The piece sounds nice, but I think it could be improved if the texture is varied a bit more.  Maybe you can change the instrumentation for the second dialogue, have the upper strings play a different role.  I also think the bassoon might not project as much as you imagine in a real concert situation without doubling.  Also, the octave C# sounds a little weak as a climactic point at bar 41.

You should specify when one oboe or bassoon is playing as opposed to both.

I do wonder, though, why you've said that the piece is "in D minor" when it ends in E-flat major.  There's nothing wrong with ending in a different key than you start in, but I question the utility of naming it in such a misleading fashion.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 01:19:18 PM by Mahlerian »

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2890
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 01:40:47 PM »
I have a particular and inexplicable (ok, it's probably the synaesthesia) love of C-sharp major. I'm not sure I could tell C-sharp major apart from D-flat major in a blind listening test if you gave me a piece I didn't know, but I've had a surprisingly good track record so far (sometimes I judge a D-flat major passage to be in C-sharp major because I feel like it should have been written that way and the composer only didn't because it would be too hard to read).

Offline PerfectWagnerite

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3213
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 02:28:44 PM »
Why do I see sections of pieces written in G-flat major but I have never seen anything in E-flat minor? Also why is a key like G-flat major never the main key in a piece - in other words sections of a piece might be in G-flat major but never the beginning or end.

Offline Mahlerian

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1659
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 03:05:13 PM »
Why do I see sections of pieces written in G-flat major but I have never seen anything in E-flat minor? Also why is a key like G-flat major never the main key in a piece - in other words sections of a piece might be in G-flat major but never the beginning or end.

Mahler wrote several things that use E-flat minor.

Symphony 6, scherzo:

Symphony 8, Part II, beginning:

Offline Ghost Sonata

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1007
  • "Because I could not stop for Death..."
  • Location: USA
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 03:18:42 PM »
Mark me down as a Gm man.  Both a wave of delight and instant purchase occur when I see it...
I like Conor71's "I  like old Music" signature.

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 04:15:25 PM »
I'm so happy everyone is enjoying the discussion in D minor, shame no one is enjoying the music that started the thread  :(
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 04:39:00 PM by MarkMcD »

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2017, 09:53:10 AM »
Hi folks,

I didn't get a lot of response to this one, but I think possibly because it was not very well executed, also because there was an actual discussion about D minor, that wasn't really the object of my post.  I've spent a couple of weeks trying to rewrite it and made quite a few changes. I really would appreciate it if you good people could let me know if you can see improvement with the rewrite.

The new links are below. Again, I'm sure there are many mistakes in the score, but a large number of them are due to making Sibelius play the piece as I would like it to sound, the players score should not look like this. But I'm sure there are also obvious mistakes like wrong sharps or flats etc., and if you spot any, then I would also appreciate you letting me know.

Thanks in advance
Mark

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4kbk9qes0613are/Discussions%20around%20D%20minor.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/grv0iq9mtbq34ol/Discussions%20around%20D%20minor.pdf?dl=0

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 43977
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 10:02:37 AM »
The discussion did wander a bit, didn't it?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 11:00:26 AM »
Hi Karl, yes it did and I didn't mind really, only no one commented on the music which was what left me a bit disheartened  :'(
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 01:38:43 AM by MarkMcD »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 43977
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2017, 04:44:23 AM »
Forgive me for not yet commenting, myself.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2017, 09:16:48 AM »
Hi Karl,

No it's fine, I know that my style of writing is not to everyone's taste.  I do try to not sound as if it came from bygone eras but I also know that you couldn't really call what I do "modern or contemporary" (other than in the sense that I wrote it recently).  Even though I know it harks to the styles of the past, I like to think I have done it in my own voice at least.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 43977
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2017, 09:30:59 AM »
I should clarify:  forgive me for not yet having listened, and therefore not commenting!  0:)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mahlerian

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1659
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2017, 09:36:12 AM »
Hi Karl, yes it did and I didn't mind really, only no one commented on the music which was what left me a bit disheartened  :'(

I did comment above.  I'm sorry if my comments got buried in the ensuing discussion (and if they were actually buried in my post, which made them less prominent than they should have been).

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2017, 01:35:17 AM »
Hi Mahlerian,

I do apologise, you did indeed comment and I think I might have missed it or I would have been sure to reply sooner. 

I think I have addresses some of the issues you pointed out in the re-write, I'm much more pleased with the results than before and this is due to you good folks pointing out it's weaknesses and I do appreciate it.

As for the title, I wanted to call it something other than usual "nocturne, prelude, study ect.," since it's not really any of those, and I liked the discussion element of the piece, but you're right, it only stays in D minor for a short time, travelling through a few others before ending in E flat major, so perhaps I will also retitle it.

Thanks again for your observations, they are always appreciated.
Mark

Offline MarkMcD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Location: Valencia
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 01:50:30 AM »
Karl, you are forgiven  :D

Although, if you could find time, I really would appreciate your observations.  I'm not looking for praise, so please don't think you have to say it's wonderful when really it's a bunch of c..p lol.  I want to learn and improve wherever possible, and constructive criticism is what I need most.

Mark

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7543
  • An American Hero!
Re: Discussions in D minor
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2017, 03:08:36 AM »
Greetings Mark McD!

I have not had a great deal of time to peruse your score.  However, here is a quick comment simply on the notation, and specifically the bassoon: while it is not impossible for a bassoonist to understand a treble clef  ;) , you should re-notate the treble clef sections with a tenor clef: that will prevent those ledger lines below the treble clef and make life easier for your player.

One or two more quick comments:  the string accompaniment becomes monotonous in the opening, and I think the dialogue between the oboe and bassoon, while it begins well, becomes quickly predictable.   While the bassoon is not imitating the notes of the oboe, the rhythmic pattern is - for my ear - too often identical.  In other words, give the bassoon something melodically distinct from the oboe, which will give you more of a "real" dialogue, and open up many more contrapuntal possibilities.

I am very impressed with your contrapuntal abilities!

"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK