Author Topic: Unnecessary titles for symphonies  (Read 2358 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2017, 01:21:29 PM »
Atonal is a word that gets slung around, regardless of what it actually means.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2017, 01:25:31 PM »
Atonal is a word that gets slung around, regardless of what it actually means.

Its meaninglessness is what makes it so easy to sling around.

Online North Star

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2017, 02:00:39 PM »
Atonal is a word that gets slung around, regardless of what it actually means.
That does sometimes happen to words, literally.

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2017, 03:35:18 AM »
Its meaninglessness is what makes it so easy to sling around.

I'd substitute ambiguity for meaninglessness.  It can be meaningless, depending on how it is used.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2017, 03:36:02 AM »
That does sometimes happen to words, literally.



I did mean it figuratively, but I am glad for the caution!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Biffo

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2017, 04:19:30 AM »
I believe Nielsen's own name for it was L'inestinguibile which, as it isn't in his native language, should surely be retained - just as we don't call Beethoven's 3rd the Heroic.

The Danish version of the booklet notes for the recording by Michael Schønwandt and the Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra call the work  'Det Uudslukkelige'. The booklet also quotes a programme note by Nielsen in which he explains the meaning of the symphony's name; he uses the Danish title.

'The composer... has attempted to express in a single word what only music itself has the power to express fully: the elementary will to life'

Offline jessop

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2017, 07:03:58 PM »
I think if I compose a symphony I will write it in E flat major and title it 'The Atonal.'

Offline opaquer

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2017, 07:13:40 PM »
Trout Mask Replica has been called atonal.

Hmmm  ::)

If you want to stuck with the general ambiguous descriptions, it'd be called "poly-tonal", it's much like Nancarrow's ragtime stuff or Bartok's folksong stuff.

EVERYTHING IS SO CONVOLUTED OMGG!!!  ??? ??? ???

Offline amw

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2017, 07:17:02 PM »
I think if I compose a symphony I will write it in E flat major and title it 'The Atonal.'

I actually had longstanding plans to write a "String Quartet No. 1 in B-flat major" that would be "atonal" (both in the sense of not using common practice tonality, and in the sense of consisting more of noise than pitch), although for serious reasons, but that idea—along with my other planned string quartet, String Quartet No. 11 in F minor, Op. 122, which takes each movement of Shostakovich's quartet of the same title and randomises its content in a slightly different way—got shelved because string quartets are hard to find around here

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2017, 07:17:20 PM »
I think if I compose a symphony I will write it in E flat major and title it 'The Atonal.'

I’ll compose a ballet based on a story of three early 20 something guys going to a nightclub and call one of the movements, Atonal Hijinks. :)
"In the next world, I shan't be doing music, with all the striving and disappointments. I shall be being it.” - Ralph Vaughan Williams

Offline opaquer

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2017, 07:17:55 PM »
Symphony no 9: Where I demonstrate these academic concepts you won't notice, I've also written into the program notes to fuck with you

Offline opaquer

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2017, 07:19:59 PM »
A piece that is entirely made up of cluster dissonance (to the Ives/Cowell degree), involving a really long block of wood placed over a grand piano for the entire duration, named:

"Sonata - In Praise Of C Major"

Offline opaquer

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2017, 07:25:02 PM »
Speaking of Ballet, a solo ballet about a paralyzed person would be interesting!

Offline jessop

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2017, 07:30:23 PM »
I’ll compose a ballet based on a story of three early 20 something guys going to a nightclub and call one of the movements, Atonal Hijinks. :)

Maybe it would sound something like this...................

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/ScxXYjgf3PU" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/ScxXYjgf3PU</a>

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2017, 07:39:12 PM »
If Debussy's music was called atonal it was an incorrect use of the word.  The Cambridge Companion to Debussy has an entire chapter on his handling of tonality.

You can find similar explanations of Schoenberg's harmonic methods in his later works.  He also uses the facts of tonal relationships, just as Debussy did.

Schoenberg's 12-tone music is certainly atonal.  Some of Stravinsky's late works are atonal as well.

So you say.  Some people disagree, including Schoenberg.

But, Prokofiev and Mahler don't write atonal music.

So you say.  Early commentators didn't agree.  Nor did the person who wrote that infamous Pravda article, as regards Prokofiev.

None of these terms, atonal, serial, 12-tone, even tonal, are exact.

Then why do you get to make hard and fast decisions like the above?  How can you say that Schoenberg's 12-tone music is "certainly" atonal if neither tonal nor atonal are exact terms?

According to a strict definition of 12-tone music hardly any of the music written by so-called 12-tone composers would qualify since they all take liberties with the methodology.

Sure.  What's your point?

This is your bug-a-boo and it is beyond tedious.

You could always let it go and stop being bothered by the fact that I don't hear atonality.

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2017, 07:41:41 PM »
You can find similar explanations of Schoenberg's harmonic methods in his later works.  He also uses the facts of tonal relationships, just as Debussy did.

So you say.  Some people disagree, including Schoenberg.

So you say.  Early commentators didn't agree.  Nor did the person who wrote that infamous Pravda article, as regards Prokofiev.

Then why do you get to make hard and fast decisions like the above?  How can you say that Schoenberg's 12-tone music is "certainly" atonal if neither tonal nor atonal are exact terms?

Sure.  What's your point?

You could always let it go and stop being bothered by the fact that I don't hear atonality.

Maybe you can confine your obsession with the word "atonal" to one thread so that discussion of music on the site won't be hindered.  ::)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 07:44:43 PM by Scarpia »

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2017, 07:46:28 PM »
Maybe you can confine your obsession with the word "atonal" to one thread so that discussion of music on the site won't be hindered.  ::)

I didn't bring it up in this thread.  San Antonio did.  I didn't bring it up in that other thread, either.  Others did.  You brought it up in the Now Listening thread, of all things.

I wouldn't say that responding to others' jabs is obsession.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 07:53:14 PM by Mahlerian »

Offline opaquer

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2017, 07:47:47 PM »
Lol, what if the whole "in C Major" trend had continued into so-called "atonal" works:


Brian Ferneyhough - La Terre est Un Homme no 1 for orchestra (in no key but still really fucking good)

Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Unnecessary titles for symphonies
« Reply #78 on: November 01, 2017, 09:12:34 PM »
Lol, what if the whole "in C Major" trend had continued into so-called "atonal" works:

Brian Ferneyhough - La Terre est Un Homme no 1 for orchestra (in no key but still really fucking good)
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Offline opaquer

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