Author Topic: Modern anti-semitism  (Read 1019 times)

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Offline Mandryka

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Modern anti-semitism
« on: November 13, 2017, 10:47:43 AM »
Thought provoking speech here from Andrew Neil.

https://vimeo.com/238584380
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Offline Tulse

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2017, 12:07:22 PM »
Thought provoking speech here from Andrew Neil.

https://vimeo.com/238584380

Which bits did you find thought provoking?

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2017, 12:42:16 PM »
Which bits did you find thought provoking?

The attempt to revive the old idea that there's a link between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. I thought that idea was as dead as a dodo, and rightly so, but Neil can't resist regurgitating it.
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Offline Tulse

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2017, 01:10:55 PM »
The attempt to revive the old idea that there's a link between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. I thought that idea was as dead as a dodo, and rightly so, but Neil can't resist regurgitating it.

Ah yes, I missed that bit. i have heard it more frequently in the past year or two though.

I flicked through the link. I saw him say that left wingers and all conspiracy theories are anti-semitic.

Offline -abe-

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2017, 01:54:39 PM »
Wrong: Having distaste for Jews as Jews.

Not wrong: Loathing zionism and the quasi-fifth-columnist behavior of Israel supporters, among them the neocons who are always encouraging U.S wars against nations Israel doesn't like.


Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2017, 06:08:51 PM »


Not wrong: Loathing zionism and the quasi-fifth-columnist behavior of Israel supporters, among them the neocons who are always encouraging U.S wars against nations Israel doesn't like.

Which is straight out of the old Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
This is not the first time you've expressed your anti-Semitism.

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2017, 06:19:57 PM »
The attempt to revive the old idea that there's a link between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. I thought that idea was as dead as a dodo, and rightly so, but Neil can't resist regurgitating it.

It is quite true and alive.
The context is that anti-Zionists don't usually stick to opposing the policies of the Israeli government, which is valid. Heck, I oppose a good many things the Israeli government does.  They don't stick to advocating a single country, achieved by peaceful means, in which Arabs and Jews live together as fellow citizens, which I disagree with, mainly because I don't think it would work in practice.
Instead anti-Zionists tend to peddle outright anti-Semitism, as -abe- has done in this thread, and tend to approve of killing Jews in the name of Palestinian Independence. And killing Jews (btw, the stated goal of Hamas) is pretty much the end goal of anti-Semitism, after all.

Offline amw

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2017, 06:36:37 PM »
There have been some incidents recently, e.g. women being banned from the Chicago Dyke March for carrying a flag with the magen david on it because the same symbol appears on the Israeli flag (even though it's just a general symbol for being Jewish), a number of leftist politicians exposed for antisemitic statements or views which both they and the right-wing media conflate with antizionism, I believe there was something with Linda Sarsour supporting a person convicted on terrorism charges and conflating that with support of the Palestinian cause.

At the same time I really don't like pointing fingers at "the left" when "the right" is doing much worse including yesterday's white supremacist/neo-nazi rally in Poland that attracted 60,000 people. The left and its "woke" antisemitism seems to be mostly an internet phenomenon among edgy kids that only occasionally spills out into the mainstream, and a lot of really questionable shit that people say seems to come down to them not considering what it would look like to a Jewish person or understanding how antisemitism functions in practice. It's a sin of ignorance which sometimes becomes intentional because people refuse to listen, particularly re American Jewry because "Jews are white and therefore antisemitism doesn't exist anymore/isn't a big deal", but for the most part the left remains active in countering white supremacy—rather than upholding it by demonising Jews—in a way that the right is........ doing the exact opposite of.

I mean obvs I'm a jewish antizionist so w/e

Offline -abe-

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2017, 06:38:38 PM »
Which is straight out of the old Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
This is not the first time you've expressed your anti-Semitism.

Yes, there really is such a thing as Jew Hatred. There also really is such a thing as using false charges of Jew Hatred to silence legitimate disagreement.



Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 06:39:51 PM »
The extreme right seems to be more focused on Moslems.

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 06:42:02 PM »
Yes, there really is such a thing as Jew Hatred. There also really is such a thing as using false charges of Jew Hatred to silence legitimate disagreement.

The post I quoted is straight out anti-Semitism of the old "Jews have too much power" variety. Therefore it is accurate to say you are an anti-Semite.

Offline -abe-

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2017, 06:48:01 PM »
The Chicago thing was a troll job by AIPAC. In many leftist circles (like the type that would conduct a Dyke march) people loudly supporting Israel are unwelcome. Someone went there carrying the Israel flag while shouting pro-Israel slogans. They got thrown out and then said "oh no antisemitism!"

There are real bigots out there who hate Jews, and it's a disservice to the worthwhile goal of continuing to stigmatize such bigotry by redefining antisemitism as "opposition to Israel/Zionism."


Offline amw

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2017, 06:55:36 PM »
In many leftist circles (like the type that would conduct a Dyke march) people loudly supporting Israel are unwelcome.
In the story as it was reported when I saw it, the person carrying the flag didn't say or do anything in support of Israel and was approached by march organisers and asked to leave. That said there was something about a pro-Israel group showing up at the march so who knows.

It's a story I didn't follow closely because identity politics is false consciousness anyway. >_>

Offline -abe-

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2017, 06:59:21 PM »
The post I quoted is straight out anti-Semitism of the old "Jews have too much power" variety. Therefore it is accurate to say you are an anti-Semite.

Jewish-Americans have outsize political and cultural capital relative to their numbers in the population, and while it may be neo-nazis and such who are very eager to explore these questions, it certainly shouldn't be unspeakable for everyone else to observe this or even comment on it. Indeed, it's not out of bounds for a member of a multicultural society to ask, for instance, if it's truly in the interest of the nation as a whole that so many of our mid-east negotiators on Israel/Palestine happen to be Jews who have an emotional and ideological connection with Israel. Perhaps those type of positions should be held by an American who wouldn't, in that case, have such conflicting loyalties. After all, Jewish Americans certainly wouldn't like it if these positions were held by Arab-Americans, would they? Basically so much of your whining, Jeffrey Smith, could be whittled down to "don't call us out on our privileges."

 

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2017, 07:02:33 PM »
Jewish-Americans have outsize political and cultural capital relative to their numbers in the population, and while it may be neo-nazis and such who are very eager to explore these questions, it certainly shouldn't be unspeakable for everyone else to observe this or even comment on it. Indeed, it's not out of bounds for a member of a multicultural society to ask, for instance, if it's truly in the interest of the nation as a whole that so many of our mid-east negotiators on Israel/Palestine happen to be Jews who have an emotional and ideological connection with Israel. Perhaps those type of positions should be held by an American who wouldn't, in that case, have such conflicting loyalties. After all, Jewish Americans certainly wouldn't like it if these positions were held by Arab-Americans, would they? Basically so much of your whining, Jeffrey Smith, could be whittled down to "don't call us out on our privileges."

You just regurgitated the Protocols again...

Offline amw

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 07:29:00 PM »
Jewish-Americans have outsize political and cultural capital relative to their numbers in the population
*wealthy Ashkenazi Jewish Americans whose families emigrated in the 1930s or earlier, mostly orthodox or conservative

American Jewry is an extremely class-stratified population. The wealthiest tend to be concentrated in major cities, particularly New York City and even more particularly in upscale areas such as the Upper East Side. These families were wealthy even before coming to the US, because without the ability to own land in Europe their only way to ensure financial security was through liquid assets (i.e. cash). Those who could not obtain large amounts of cash are the poor Ashkenazi Jews, which tend to be concentrated in poverty-stricken areas such as Borough Park or Kiryas Joel, and are among the populations most dependent on social services in the US. Sephardi & Mizrahi Jews also tend to be quite poor and, because they tend to speak Arabic or Ladino rather than Yiddish (and be brown), can't really assimilate into the Ashkenazi communities and thus more likely to live in predominantly Middle Eastern neighbourhoods.

Poor and working-class Jews are much more likely to be targeted by discrimination and hate crimes than any other religious group in the US, at least according to the FBI (which was run by an anglo-saxon man of perfect Aryan heritage when the latest statistics were released). Upper-class Jews generally report very little discrimination on religious grounds. It's important to remember that there is no Jewish middle class in the USA—if you aren't part of the cultural elite, or even if you don't pronounce your Hebrew in the Ashkenazi manner (shabbat -> shabbos, etc) as my mom found out when she moved there, you're basically not ever going to be part of the Jewish upper class and your social circles are going to be limited to the working poor of your particular religious denomination. So it's really more complicated than "check your privilege".

The political power of AIPAC et al comes down only partly to the money. The whole idea from the start was that the US would fund Israel as a counter to the Soviet Union's ties with Egypt, and essentially build a regional power to be a bulwark against communism. (I'm on communism's side there, tbh.) With the fall of the Soviet Union the US became increasingly eager to disentangle itself from Israel, leading to the Oslo Accords, but enough money had been flowing in at that point that the donors were loath to abandon their investment, and convinced the US it needed Israel as a regional power to be a bulwark against Iran. (I'm on Iran's side too. >.>) Now that Saudi is the bulwark against Iran instead, Israel has technically outlived its usefulness once again, which makes me think the time is coming ripe for a new peace agreement, and which has Netanyahu and Abbas scrambling because their cushy lifestyles may be coming to an end. I expect the leaders who succeed them will have much more appetite for peace and honestly I expect the platform of the US Democratic Party to include ending military aid to Israel & negotiating a two-state solution by 2024. I mean if we're still alive and everything.

Also, though I'm a Sarsour agnostic, this actually looks interesting.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:36:42 PM by amw »

Offline -abe-

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2017, 07:43:20 PM »
It is quite true and alive.
The context is that anti-Zionists don't usually stick to opposing the policies of the Israeli government, which is valid. Heck, I oppose a good many things the Israeli government does.  They don't stick to advocating a single country, achieved by peaceful means, in which Arabs and Jews live together as fellow citizens, which I disagree with, mainly because I don't think it would work in practice.
Instead anti-Zionists tend to peddle outright anti-Semitism, as -abe- has done in this thread, and tend to approve of killing Jews in the name of Palestinian Independence. And killing Jews (btw, the stated goal of Hamas) is pretty much the end goal of anti-Semitism, after all.

I acknowledge that anti-zionist rhetoric can slip into anti-jewish rhetoric. Do you acknowledge that charges of antisemitism can be misused to merely silence individuals that are politically hostile to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?

Offline -abe-

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 07:48:09 PM »
*wealthy Ashkenazi Jewish Americans whose families emigrated in the 1930s or earlier, mostly orthodox or conservative

American Jewry is an extremely class-stratified population. The wealthiest tend to be concentrated in major cities, particularly New York City and even more particularly in upscale areas such as the Upper East Side. These families were wealthy even before coming to the US, because without the ability to own land in Europe their only way to ensure financial security was through liquid assets (i.e. cash). Those who could not obtain large amounts of cash are the poor Ashkenazi Jews, which tend to be concentrated in poverty-stricken areas such as Borough Park or Kiryas Joel, and are among the populations most dependent on social services in the US. Sephardi & Mizrahi Jews also tend to be quite poor and, because they tend to speak Arabic or Ladino rather than Yiddish (and be brown), can't really assimilate into the Ashkenazi communities and thus more likely to live in predominantly Middle Eastern neighbourhoods.

Poor and working-class Jews are much more likely to be targeted by discrimination and hate crimes than any other religious group in the US, at least according to the FBI (which was run by an anglo-saxon man of perfect Aryan heritage when the latest statistics were released). Upper-class Jews generally report very little discrimination on religious grounds. It's important to remember that there is no Jewish middle class in the USA—if you aren't part of the cultural elite, or even if you don't pronounce your Hebrew in the Ashkenazi manner (shabbat -> shabbos, etc) as my mom found out when she moved there, you're basically not ever going to be part of the Jewish upper class and your social circles are going to be limited to the working poor of your particular religious denomination. So it's really more complicated than "check your privilege".

The political power of AIPAC et al comes down only partly to the money. The whole idea from the start was that the US would fund Israel as a counter to the Soviet Union's ties with Egypt, and essentially build a regional power to be a bulwark against communism. (I'm on communism's side there, tbh.) With the fall of the Soviet Union the US became increasingly eager to disentangle itself from Israel, leading to the Oslo Accords, but enough money had been flowing in at that point that the donors were loath to abandon their investment, and convinced the US it needed Israel as a regional power to be a bulwark against Iran. (I'm on Iran's side too. >.>) Now that Saudi is the bulwark against Iran instead, Israel has technically outlived its usefulness once again, which makes me think the time is coming ripe for a new peace agreement, and which has Netanyahu and Abbas scrambling because their cushy lifestyles may be coming to an end. I expect the leaders who succeed them will have much more appetite for peace and honestly I expect the platform of the US Democratic Party to include ending military aid to Israel & negotiating a two-state solution by 2024. I mean if we're still alive and everything.

Also, though I'm a Sarsour agnostic, this actually looks interesting.

Good, nuanced information.

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 08:07:49 PM »
I acknowledge that anti-zionist rhetoric can slip into anti-jewish rhetoric. Do you acknowledge that charges of antisemitism can be misused to merely silence individuals that are politically hostile to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?

Yes. But I know of no case in which the charge was made, but was not deserved.

Mind you, support for Hamas, or wanting to treat it as anything other than a group of murderous thugs who ought to be in jail for the rest of their lives, is  anti-Semitism. I specify Hamas because it blantanly calls for killing Jews, unlike the Abbas regime, which at least pays lip service to the idea of eventually living in peace.

Offline amw

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Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2017, 08:29:49 PM »
Hamas has moved way over to the non-killing-Jews side of things since 2006 and having to actually govern, tbh. At this point I kinda qualified-support them as the least bad option (at least if it's a choice between Hamas, the PA & the Knesset) which I couldn't have said three years ago. The new charter and the negotiations that led to it went some way towards changing my mind on them. I still don't believe in any national or ethnic movement, or that Palestine is "for" any particular group of people, and I also don't think armed resistance is the most effective way to combat occupation (that said "armed resistance" is defined by international law as excluding attacks on civilians, so that's a step forward from their old charter which encouraged attacks on civilians)—I'd rather see BDS expanded tbh. It has shown itself to be a much more effective political tool and I feel like even Hamas can't avoid recognising this, as much as their armed forces want to hang on to power internally.

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