Author Topic: Modern anti-semitism  (Read 3231 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2017, 07:41:59 PM »
You are not taking on board my position. You can defend Israel until you are blue in the face but it still won't deal with the issues raised in the OP. I'm not talking about Arab good, Israel bad or vice versa. The issue is about whether or not a left wing position, anti-globalisation views, a conspiracy theory or an anti-Israeli view can be held without being labelled an antisemite. Clearly the journalist in the OP thinks not.

I'm not clear from your responses to what extent you agree with Andrew Neil's position.

I will answer the question for myself. It is possible to be antiglobalist and a left-winger and still support Israel. The problem lies in the fact that antiglobalists and left-wingers often adopt anti-Semitism. So the charge is not always true but in practice often is.

Anti-Israeli needs clarification. Does it mean opposition to many of the policies of the current Israeli government? Does it mean support of a  Palestinian state living peacefully with its neighbors or a single state where Jews and Arabs live, if not harmoniously, at least peacefully, together?  Since a lot of Jews, including myself,  oppose the policies of the current government and want a Palestinian state in some form, it's obviously not anti-Semitic to hold those positions. But much of the left goes much further than that, denies the right of the Jews to exist as a people, and holds to the classic illusion of Jews having too much power. And those are classic anti-Semitic positions.

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2017, 07:44:15 PM »
I don't know who John Gay is, but I know what John Donne said:

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Why is "Amen to that" bad, yet "Amen to what John Gay said" is good?  ;D

John Gay was the man responsible for The Beggar's Opera. And also a friend of Swift and Pope.

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11641
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2017, 11:08:55 PM »
The great tragedy, in my opinion, was the assassination of Yitzak Rabin - a man of integrity who just might have helped to bring peace to that troubled region. After that Israeli politics shifted to the right. In Britain the premature death of the Labour leader John Smith was also, in my opinion, a disaster as it ushered in the Blair years and the disastrous intervention in Iraq with all the consequences which are still with us. I guess that it also depends on the extent to which you believe that an individual can change the course of history. At one time I thought that it was absurd to suggest that criticism of Israel is a form of anti-semitism. I still largely believe this but I think that sometimes criticism of Israel is a mask for anti-semitism. The Labour Party in Britain does, I believe, still have a problem with anti-semitism as evidenced by the Labour MP Naz Shah's suggestion that Israel should be 'transported' to the USA. She was rightly condemned by David Cameron for suggesting this but, in fairness to her, she sincerely apologised and seems to have a good relationship with her local Jewish community.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10333
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2017, 11:13:38 PM »
According to Israeli figures nearly 10000 Palestinians have been killed in conflict since 1987 compared to 1600 Israelis. Perhaps we should talk more about who approves the killing of Arabs in the name of Israeli independence. Do you approve Jeffrey Smith?

10 000 is 8400 more than 1600.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 07:29:27 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 10333
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2017, 11:21:12 PM »


 But much of the left goes much further than that, denies the right of the Jews to exist as a people,

Thanks for your reply, which I'd clipped because this comment surprised me, can you point me to something about it? It's the word "much" which surprised me, and I'm not sure what " as a people" means exactly here.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 11:23:41 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Tulse

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2017, 11:08:11 AM »
I will answer the question for myself. It is possible to be antiglobalist and a left-winger and still support Israel. The problem lies in the fact that antiglobalists and left-wingers often adopt anti-Semitism. So the charge is not always true but in practice often is.

Anti-Israeli needs clarification. Does it mean opposition to many of the policies of the current Israeli government? Does it mean support of a  Palestinian state living peacefully with its neighbors or a single state where Jews and Arabs live, if not harmoniously, at least peacefully, together?  Since a lot of Jews, including myself,  oppose the policies of the current government and want a Palestinian state in some form, it's obviously not anti-Semitic to hold those positions. But much of the left goes much further than that, denies the right of the Jews to exist as a people, and holds to the classic illusion of Jews having too much power. And those are classic anti-Semitic positions.

I have a disconnect with you over the two bolded bits. The neo-liberal media in the UK often point to anti-semitism in the (neo-liberal) Labour party, but I haven't yet seen anything to make me think that it is anything other than a smokescreen to continue to enable the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population.

So can you provide any evidence of the bolded comments to support what you assert? I would be genuinely interested, as this seems to be a new thing and it should be called out.

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2017, 02:02:18 PM »
I have a disconnect with you over the two bolded bits. The neo-liberal media in the UK often point to anti-semitism in the (neo-liberal) Labour party, but I haven't yet seen anything to make me think that it is anything other than a smokescreen to continue to enable the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population.

So can you provide any evidence of the bolded comments to support what you assert? I would be genuinely interested, as this seems to be a new thing and it should be called out.

As evidence, may I suggest you re-read the last sentence of the first paragraph you yourself wrote, and consider how it seems to echo classic anti-Semitism? You seem to have adopted the idea without even realizing that you have adopted it.

As for the rest, the Left, especially in the universities and anywhere there is a strong Muslim population, openly supports and even celebrates the extreme program and the terrorism of Palestinian militants, and tries to shut down any discussion of the issue that deviates from the Hamas party line.  That is not a media fabrication.

Offline Tulse

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2017, 02:20:34 PM »
As evidence, may I suggest you re-read the last sentence of the first paragraph you yourself wrote, and consider how it seems to echo classic anti-Semitism? You seem to have adopted the idea without even realizing that you have adopted it.

As for the rest, the Left, especially in the universities and anywhere there is a strong Muslim population, openly supports and even celebrates the extreme program and the terrorism of Palestinian militants, and tries to shut down any discussion of the issue that deviates from the Hamas party line.  That is not a media fabrication.

I wrote: 'The neo-liberal media in the UK often point to anti-semitism in the (neo-liberal) Labour party, but I haven't yet seen anything to make me think that it is anything other than a smokescreen to continue to enable the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population.'

I cannot see how this is even slightly anti-semitic. Can you explain that to me?

Regarding people on the left, can you provide me with instances of this occurring, that is what I am looking for,  leading left wing politicians, unionists, activists, academics etc. making anti-semitic comments? If you are right, the media should be littered with anti-semitic quotes. Are you able to point me to some?

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2017, 02:28:39 PM »
I wrote: 'The neo-liberal media in the UK often point to anti-semitism in the (neo-liberal) Labour party, but I haven't yet seen anything to make me think that it is anything other than a smokescreen to continue to enable the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population.'

I cannot see how this is even slightly anti-semitic. Can you explain that to me?

Regarding people on the left, can you provide me with instances of this occurring, that is what I am looking for,  leading left wing politicians, unionists, activists, academics etc. making anti-semitic comments? If you are right, the media should be littered with anti-semitic quotes. Are you able to point me to some?

I bolded it so you can see how you glibly rephrased the "Jewish lobby" line, apparently without even realizing you did it.

You yourself mentioned those anti-Semitic utterances in order to dismiss them as media fabrications. Why should I bother to provide further evidence if you already feel the evidence is fake news?

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11641
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2017, 03:11:26 PM »
I wrote: 'The neo-liberal media in the UK often point to anti-semitism in the (neo-liberal) Labour party, but I haven't yet seen anything to make me think that it is anything other than a smokescreen to continue to enable the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population.'

I cannot see how this is even slightly anti-semitic. Can you explain that to me?

Regarding people on the left, can you provide me with instances of this occurring, that is what I am looking for,  leading left wing politicians, unionists, activists, academics etc. making anti-semitic comments? If you are right, the media should be littered with anti-semitic quotes. Are you able to point me to some?
Please could you elaborate on  '...the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population'. I'm genuinely not sure what you mean by this comment.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Parsifal

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2017, 03:20:38 PM »
Please could you elaborate on  '...the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population'. I'm genuinely not sure what you mean by this comment.

I don't want to get into this discussion, but this can easily be read as a reference growing income inequality (i.e., the growth in wealth of the investor class at the expense of the middle class and working class) without reference to any particular ethnic group.

Offline Tulse

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2017, 03:50:23 PM »
I bolded it so you can see how you glibly rephrased the "Jewish lobby" line, apparently without even realizing you did it.

You yourself mentioned those anti-Semitic utterances in order to dismiss them as media fabrications. Why should I bother to provide further evidence if you already feel the evidence is fake news?

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I genuinely do not understand what you mean. Nothing I wrote relates to Jews. You'll have to spell it out to me.

And what are the anti-semitic utterances? I'm not following your logic at all.


Offline -abe-

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1422
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2017, 04:02:04 PM »
I bolded it so you can see how you glibly rephrased the "Jewish lobby" line, apparently without even realizing you did it.

You yourself mentioned those anti-Semitic utterances in order to dismiss them as media fabrications. Why should I bother to provide further evidence if you already feel the evidence is fake news?

But there is a "jewish" or "zionist" lobby or whatever you'd like to call it. Many Jews like you are fiercely tribal about the issue of Israel. Your screeching about "anti-semetism" is entirely a result of your abhorrence of others recognizing this tribal behavior. The thing about tribalism though is that it almost always provokes other tribalism -- like Zionism leading to Palestinian nationalism. By labeling others as beyond the pale Jew-haters you are basically asking for your tribal nationalist impulses to be given primacy over that of others (say, the Palestinians.) This is ridiculous. How are those of us who don't share your tribal outlook and allegiances supposed to regard you? Labeling us as Jew haters won't disguise the fact that you are basically demanding your people be given continued supremacy over another people.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 04:04:25 PM by -abe- »

Offline Tulse

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2017, 04:05:55 PM »
Please could you elaborate on  '...the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population'. I'm genuinely not sure what you mean by this comment.

Over the last few decades, an increasing amount of wealth is held by a smaller number of people. Conversely, the bulk of the population is becoming relatively poorer.  The rich are getting a larger slice of the cake, the poor a smaller one.

I don't think that this is deniable. It is a factual statement which can be empirically proved or disproved (though you'd struggle with the latter). I'm just not getting how the statement is antisemitic, but I'm happy for it to be explained to me. it isn't very nice to be labeled in this way.

Offline Tulse

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2017, 04:06:46 PM »
I don't want to get into this discussion, but this can easily be read as a reference growing income inequality (i.e., the growth in wealth of the investor class at the expense of the middle class and working class) without reference to any particular ethnic group.

Yes, thanks Scarpia.

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3778
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2017, 05:15:56 PM »
Over the last few decades, an increasing amount of wealth is held by a smaller number of people. Conversely, the bulk of the population is becoming relatively poorer.  The rich are getting a larger slice of the cake, the poor a smaller one.

I don't think that this is deniable. It is a factual statement which can be empirically proved or disproved (though you'd struggle with the latter). I'm just not getting how the statement is antisemitic, but I'm happy for it to be explained to me. it isn't very nice to be labeled in this way.
One of the core beliefs of antisemitism is that Jews hold a larger degree of social or economic power than they “deserve”, or at least a disproportionate level of power relative to their population, and use this power to control white people and, in some conspiracy theories, the entire world.

The idea that the UK Parliament or the US Congress etc is secretly controlled by the “Israel lobby” is often used as an updated version of this for modern times. And there are definitely politicians who come under scrutiny for ties to the Israeli government (eg Priti Patel) in part as a result of this. There is not (yet) a similar conspiracy about the “Saudi lobby” secretly controlling the world’s governments, or any other wealthy group of individuals who influence foreign policy, even though the influence of the Saudis (or other Gulf states, or China, or whatever) plays a similar role in US/UK politics as that of the Israelis. No one suggests that Sunni Muslims in the US are a “fifth column” who are too closely tied to Saudi Arabia to be effective Middle East negotiators. (Although they do suggest this about Shia Muslims and Iran, but that’s another story.)

The whole idea that Jews are influencing American politics in order to consolidate their power and wealth is part of this, and also very uninformed, since the people pushing hardest for Israel in the US are born-again Christians rather than Zionists.

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2017, 05:40:32 PM »
Over the last few decades, an increasing amount of wealth is held by a smaller number of people. Conversely, the bulk of the population is becoming relatively poorer.  The rich are getting a larger slice of the cake, the poor a smaller one.

I don't think that this is deniable. It is a factual statement which can be empirically proved or disproved (though you'd struggle with the latter). I'm just not getting how the statement is antisemitic, but I'm happy for it to be explained to me. it isn't very nice to be labeled in this way.

I agree with you on that. But it was phrased a bit vaguely, in a way that echoed anti-Semitic canards about the Rothschild s, etc.--and in the context of a thread about anti-Semitism...I think you understand.  But I did not think you were actually an anti-Semite, and if I seemed to say you were, I apologise.

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2017, 05:58:14 PM »


And what are the anti-semitic utterances? I'm not following your logic at all.

I am referring to the various incidents reported in the media which you dismissed in your earlier comment
Quote
The neo-liberal media in the UK often point to anti-semitism in the (neo-liberal) Labour party, but I haven't yet seen anything to make me think that it is anything other than a smokescreen to continue to enable the increased wealth and power of a smaller portion of the population.'

I think you are gravely mistaken in your opinion.
The most extreme example seems to be George Galloway, who is too extreme even for his own voters.

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11641
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2017, 01:25:36 AM »
I don't want to get into this discussion, but this can easily be read as a reference growing income inequality (i.e., the growth in wealth of the investor class at the expense of the middle class and working class) without reference to any particular ethnic group.
Thanks - I hope this is what it means.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11641
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Modern anti-semitism
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2017, 01:28:21 AM »
Over the last few decades, an increasing amount of wealth is held by a smaller number of people. Conversely, the bulk of the population is becoming relatively poorer.  The rich are getting a larger slice of the cake, the poor a smaller one.

I don't think that this is deniable. It is a factual statement which can be empirically proved or disproved (though you'd struggle with the latter). I'm just not getting how the statement is antisemitic, but I'm happy for it to be explained to me. it isn't very nice to be labeled in this way.
Thank you for the explanation.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).