Author Topic: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)  (Read 776 times)

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Offline bwv 1080

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Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« on: February 12, 2018, 10:43:14 AM »
Science sez males who listen to 'sophisticated' music have low testosterone

Quote
Music constitutes an integral part of everyday life. There is great variation in preference patterns for music. However, the cause of such individual differences has not been fully elucidated to date. Many behavioral traits, including personality, are known to be influenced by steroid-hormone testosterone. On this basis, we conjectured that testosterone partly determines individual differences in music preference. To examine this hypothesis, in the present study, we investigated the association between salivary testosterone concentration and strength of preference for five different music types in young males and females. The results revealed a significant negative correlation between salivary testosterone concentration and preference for sophisticated music, such as classical and jazz in males. This relationship was not mediated by the big-five personality traits. These findings indicate the possibility that neuroendocrinological function can exert influences on music preference patterns.



that is a ρ of -0.43, which can be mathematically and / or phallically interpreted as the slope of the virility of classical music listeners
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline Turner

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 10:58:44 AM »
I'm not even provoked - which may prove their point.

Btw military organizations, team sports and various other sorts of staged aggression have been using this knowledge for a very long time.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 11:01:45 AM »
There is lengthy discussion in Plato's Republic that most kinds of music should be banned in the ideal state because it makes men weaklings...
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Baron Scarpia

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 11:10:43 AM »
No mention of correlation of low testosterone with preference for harpsichord music?   8)

Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 11:16:19 AM »
Think this is a candidate for

http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124


If you look at the scatter, it is a weak relationship on a small sample.  The paper is behind a paywall, so dont know the T-stats or R^2, which look low judging from the picture.  Looks like just one high-testosterone classical music listener (and nobody asked me to be in the study) would have swung that regression line to a less flaccid position
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline Spineur

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 11:22:52 AM »
Another possibility is that classical and jazz lovers are more often found in the higher age groups who as we all know well have very little testosterone left  :D.  There are of course some exception Wenstein, Strauss-Kahn,...
BTW Strauss-Kahn is a classical music lover.
A woman voice glides like the wind
Of black, of damp, of night
And all it touches in this flight
Suddenly is over.

Anna Akhomatova

Offline Turner

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 11:24:53 AM »
I'm not sure they take into consideration the variation inherent in 'classical music'.

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 11:32:57 AM »
I'm not sure they take into consideration the variation inherent in 'classical music'.

Or "jazz," for that matter.  Still, the sample looks small and the correlation rather weak (though I certainly am not a stereotypically masculine person, preferring reflection to aggression).
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline Jo498

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 11:44:12 AM »
Another possibility is that classical and jazz lovers are more often found in the higher age groups who as we all know well have very little testosterone left  :D.  There are of course some exception Wenstein, Strauss-Kahn,...
Dutoit, Liszt, Casanova, Rubinstein... I don't think there is a shortage of womanizers (and occassionally the gay analogue) in the history of classical music.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Maestro267

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 12:11:48 PM »
Wow...I could've sworn this was a snyprrr thread, judging by its title.

Offline Crudblud

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 02:04:23 PM »
Weenie Hut Jr. employee of the month (every month!) reporting in.

Offline amw

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 02:37:09 PM »
Another possibility is that classical and jazz lovers are more often found in the higher age groups who as we all know well have very little testosterone left  :D.

Yes, failing to control for age is very sloppy of them.

And for women we have different levels of testosterone at different points in our cycles and I’m guessing they didn’t control for that either.

Basically, bad study.

Offline Baron Scarpia

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 02:41:43 PM »
Yes, failing to control for age is very sloppy of them.

And for women we have different levels of testosterone at different points in our cycles and I’m guessing they didn’t control for that either.

Basically, bad study.

Now, how do you know they didn't control for that?

:)

Only the abstract is visible, but it does specify "young" males and females, so they have controlled for age, at least on some level.

Offline amw

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2018, 04:09:43 PM »
Now, how do you know they didn't control for that?

:)

Only the abstract is visible, but it does specify "young" males and females, so they have controlled for age, at least on some level.

Oops, didn't notice that.

I'm skeptical of basically any scientific paper that tests sex hormone levels without specifying that those levels are an average of multiple measurements over a certain period of time (ideally at least a month). Hormone levels fluctuate not only over the course of each individual day—apparently they tested everyone between 12 and 2 PM to account for that—but also more significantly over longer periods of time. I don't think men have constant levels of testosterone either, or for that matter oestrogen (yes, men also produce that >.>), and doing the same test a week later might have produced very different results.

Here's the complete paper for interested parties.

Offline Baron Scarpia

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2018, 04:25:21 PM »
Oops, didn't notice that.

I'm skeptical of basically any scientific paper that tests sex hormone levels without specifying that those levels are an average of multiple measurements over a certain period of time (ideally at least a month). Hormone levels fluctuate not only over the course of each individual day—apparently they tested everyone between 12 and 2 PM to account for that—but also more significantly over longer periods of time. I don't think men have constant levels of testosterone either, or for that matter oestrogen (yes, men also produce that >.>), and doing the same test a week later might have produced very different results.

Here's the complete paper for interested parties.

Your objection is valid, but variance introduced by failing to adequately sample the hormone level would tend to reduce the correlation in the data, if there is anything there.

In any case, even if the trend shown is statistically significant the scatter is so large it can't be terribly predictive. There are some things which, even if true, are not really worth knowing.


Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Offline jessop

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 10:13:24 PM »
imo people who care about this kind of thing are 'weenies' 8)

But I am usually sceptical about such studies because the level of any hormone we have would fluctuate and differ from person to person anyway. If someone (a man, based on this thread topic) is healthy, and I am certain that any endocrinologist would agree, then I would assume that level of testosterone and oestrogen they produce wouldn't be anything unusual. I am not sure exactly how endocrinology would be the most relevant area of biology to conduct a general study and find a general , averaged conclusion about personality and musical preference. I woulda thought psychology finds that more interesting to be honest.

Offline Marc

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 10:30:45 PM »
No mention of correlation of low testosterone with preference for harpsichord music?   8)

No way.

I'm a predator, I'm a beast, and I pass on my genes on Les Barricades Mystérieuses.
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Offline Herman

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 11:57:25 PM »
My mind is always boggled that this kind of circular reasoning "research" that is only geared toward getting mentioned in silly magazines is even funded.

Offline -abe-

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Re: Science sez y'all are a bunch of weenies (ladies here excluded)
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2018, 01:24:08 AM »
This thread  ;D