Author Topic: New Music –> new classical music audiences  (Read 2011 times)

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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 09:19:51 AM »
Wrong. Dead wrong, actually.

Number of recorded Baroque composers in my library: 174.

Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

Number of recorded Romantic composers in my library: 167.

You know, there is much more good to excellent music than the dozen or two names canonized by the (mostly Austro-German oriented) canon.

I'm still wondering about that ideology thing.  What official ideology are you talking about?

As jessop remarked, this is an unfalsifiable proposition and please excuse me if I'm not going to take your word for it.

It's a matter of probability.  Which do you think is more likely, that people all over Europe stood in such awe of the relatively few (a hundred or two dozen, whichever) musicians who wrote music that they didn't bother to do it themselves, or that there were forgotten (and, for the most part, forgettable) figures who were putting out reams of music of their own just about everywhere?  From my perspective, the former beggars belief.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 09:21:29 AM by Mahlerian »
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline amw

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2018, 09:27:48 AM »
Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

[...]

As jessop remarked, this is an unfalsifiable proposition and please excuse me if I'm not going to take your word for it.
Not that unfalsifiable. Here is a sampling of hundreds of, mostly forgotten, composers from the Classical era.

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:People_from_the_Classical_era&intersect=Composers

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 10:02:25 AM »

Be it as it may, I couldn't care less about music which adresses social concerns, be it 18th, 19th or 21st century.

Yeah, one of the attractions of classical music is that it allows me to get away from social concerns. And that goes for contemporary music, too.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2018, 10:07:09 AM »
Yeah, one of the attractions of classical music is that it allows me to get away from social concerns. And that goes for contemporary music, too.

Hear, hear.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Baron Scarpia

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 10:10:52 AM »
Hear, hear.

I thought the expression was "hear here." :)

« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 10:13:46 AM by Baron Scarpia »

Offline Crudblud

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 11:02:58 AM »
Henning hears here the heavenly hum of humble horns harking, barking, and, arcing through the air, singing sweet: "no social issue do we treat".

Offline aleazk

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 11:22:30 AM »
I think the premise is plausible, but the effect will be limited since the level of complexity tends to be higher in the classical side. There will ever be the need of some "hardwork" (maybe not the best word for it) from the part of the newcomer listener. I think the most important thing is to propose new ideas on how to make that hardwork to flow in the most amicable way.

ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 05:04:00 PM »
Not that unfalsifiable. Here is a sampling of hundreds of, mostly forgotten, composers from the Classical era.

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:People_from_the_Classical_era&intersect=Composers
Actually I think this isn't even a comprehensive list of composers and works anyway.

My reasoning sort of uses Occam's razor considering evidence I see in the world today.

Considering the question: are the vast majority of composers from past eras published and performed? it just requires fewer assumptions to come to the conclusion that they are not.

Today, there are heaps of community orchestras, amateur musicians and amateur composers who write music for them, or compose for a hobby. The vast majority of these composers I have come across do not really get published and their works are performed in a more casual setting with other friends and colleagues for their friends and colleagues. I have crossed paths with at least fifty people in this position.

People who have at least bit of musical training and education behind them are likely to write music from time to time anyway. More often than not, these pieces are never published or even performed. Perhaps if they decide to take the initiative, they might play it themselves in front of an audience of friends and family.

These are just things I observe about music-making in a variety of communities I have come into contact with today. It's just easy to assume that this has always been the case in the past as well as there is no evidence to suggest that published composers are the majority composers across all of history. Yes, I would argue that it is unfalsifiable position to take because by the nature of the question there can't be published evidence to back it up, but my conclusion is certainly not an absurd one! In fact, the assumption that most composers were published, performed and recorded to this day requires a greater number of assumptions and therefore needs much stronger evidence to back it up.

Whilst I agree with Florestan about the fetishisation of Austro-Germanic repertoire, I find the idea that his obstinate refusal to accept the conclusion to which Mahlerian and I have come to be rather absurd (and rather amusing).

ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 05:30:05 PM »
Number of recorded Baroque composers in my library: 174.

Number of recorded Classical composers in my library: 80.

Number of recorded Romantic composers in my library: 167.

Only that few? Well, I guess it only seems small considering how much you are interested in the lesser known gems just outside the Austro-German dominated canon......... ;D

Offline amw

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 07:00:39 PM »
Yeah, one of the attractions of classical music is that it allows me to get away from social concerns. And that goes for contemporary music, too.
All music addresses the social concerns of the age in which it was written, because human beings live in a society and the purpose of art is social. Even if the purpose of a work of contemporary music is to serve as high-class entertainment that sets aside a space separate from the everyday, it does so in response to a particular everyday: Wagnerian opera exists in direct antithesis to Germany of the 1850s and 60s, Brahms's string quartets are a private and "universal" genre set against the rise of the middle class and ultranationalism in Vienna, Bach's later and more intellectually abstruse works (AoF etc) are a reaction against the secularisation of society and simplification of popular music genres, etc. If you want music that allows you to get away from social concerns, what you're looking for is music that rejects your particular social concerns, which are those of the present day: so obviously, contemporary music that has this kind of antithetical relationship to present-day social issues would be better suited than music of the past in that regard.

Offline amw

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2018, 07:03:11 PM »
Actually I think this isn't even a comprehensive list of composers and works anyway.
For sure. To make it onto that list, a composer had to be published, or have their manuscripts survive to the present day. Amateur composers & musicians and those who did not have access to publishing companies wouldn't be on it, and for certain those who didn't write down their music wouldn't be on it.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2018, 04:01:50 AM »
In all events, of that past epoch, we draw a distinction between all the music which was created and all the music which has survived in some form to the present.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2018, 06:07:19 AM »
All music addresses the social concerns of the age in which it was written, because human beings live in a society and the purpose of art is social.

This is one of those statements that is a) self-evidently true, and b) irrelevant, due to its totalizing and reductionist nature.

It's like saying "all music is rooted in biology, because humans are biological and physical beings." True, but I don't listen to music to focus on the condition of the singer's lungs or the exact mechanism of the finger motions of the pianist.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 06:10:14 AM by Archaic Torso of Apollo »
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

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Offline Crudblud

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2018, 06:33:12 AM »
Music addresses musical concerns, anything else is beyond it.

Offline San Antone

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2018, 07:04:49 AM »
Music addresses musical concerns, anything else is beyond it.

 I agree 100% with you.  To use music in the service of a social, political, or any message-based issue, I think, pollutes what possibilities there are within it.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 07:07:24 AM by San Antone »

Offline amw

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2018, 07:26:40 AM »
Music addresses musical concerns, anything else is beyond it.
I don't think there is really a distinction that can be made between "musical concerns" and "social concerns", at least in the way music relates to its audiences and performers.

Offline San Antone

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2018, 08:15:36 AM »
I don't think there is really a distinction that can be made between "musical concerns" and "social concerns", at least in the way music relates to its audiences and performers.

Each audience member will react to a musical work in their own way and there will be a myriad of unpredictable reactions.  What is in the mind of the composer and what he hopes to accomplish with his piece is something else, and much more important and meaningful.  If a composer has an idea to address social concerns with his music, that is what I thought we were discussing.

Offline Crudblud

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2018, 09:13:48 AM »
I don't think there is really a distinction that can be made between "musical concerns" and "social concerns", at least in the way music relates to its audiences and performers.
I was writing a pointed response but I stopped once I realised that we may well be talking past each other. Instead I would like to ask you to elaborate on this idea, because I don't think I really understand what you're saying.

Offline arpeggio

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2018, 11:07:14 AM »
^^^
This thread started to lose me about post #30  ???

Offline CRCulver

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Re: New Music –> new classical music audiences
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2018, 01:34:04 PM »
I have long thought, with popular music becoming more and more sound oriented, particularly in the independent arena (take the increasingly popular noise pop and related genres for example), that visceral music like Xenakis would be far more appealing to those audiences than Mozart, even if snippets of Mozart are well woven into the fabric of western culture.

That is why I find it weird when some well-known posters with an idée fixe on classical music fora go on and on about how serial music, even the old Second Viennese School repertoire, could not possibly appeal to any listeners because it does not follow the rules of tonal development that spring inexorably from human biology or whatever. Meanwhile, they seem to be completely oblivious that crowds of kids these days – and for the last three decades – are going to festivals where Merzbow or other Japanese noise musicians play. If anything, Schoenberg with his typical Viennese rhythms and scoring would probably sound too traditional to them!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 01:40:09 PM by CRCulver »

 

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