Author Topic: Christianity has failed  (Read 1192 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Offline Holden

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2018, 12:20:45 PM »
Televangelism - extorting money through people’s fears and ignorance.
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Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2018, 01:19:00 PM »
Call the Church Police.

PS: Holden wins the award for best avatar!
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Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2018, 01:44:59 PM »
Well Christianity has been tamed by the Enlightenment whereas Islam has not, so they are not equivalent.   But Forced to choose between medieval Christianity and Islam, probably would say Islam was more civilized, but by a thin margin.  But the issue for today is whether Islam is tameable
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2018, 03:35:42 PM »

     
Well Christianity has been tamed by the Enlightenment whereas Islam has not, so they are not equivalent.   But Forced to choose between medieval Christianity and Islam, probably would say Islam was more civilized, but by a thin margin.  But the issue for today is whether Islam is tameable

     Following on how prosperity and what is called civilization followed the Roman roads, it occurs to me that the greatest flowering of the Muslim civilization in Spain was not happenstance. That's where the roads were. Christianity took over the whole damn enterprise when it was still a going concern, not a little advantage.
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Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 04:59:23 PM »
But ‘Muslim civilization’ was an invasion by Arab barbarians of regions - Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean- that had the oldest civilizations on the planet, and somehow Islam gets the credit for their culture? I don’t think so
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 05:19:07 PM by bwv 1080 »
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2018, 07:08:11 PM »
But ‘Muslim civilization’ was an invasion by Arab barbarians of regions - Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean- that had the oldest civilizations on the planet, and somehow Islam gets the credit for their culture? I don’t think so

    If you build a civilization a religion can make use of it. The other great example of Islamic high culture is Persia. Not a single great civilization is traced to monotheism, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Sanskrit, Persian, Egyptian. The monotheists are great propagandists for their own importance, a kind of success.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2018, 07:53:21 PM »
https://allthatsinteresting.com/pastors-behaving-badly

I don't know where to start or whether to even bother, the title of the thread being so offensive. On a forum dedicated mainly to music, if it weren't for the Church, there would not be Western music. I could write a long apologist article just out of my head without recourse to notes, but meanwhile did search up "Contributions of Christianity to Western Society" when there was already a book written about that more than 20 years ago.

Up to the 7th century, parts of Europe, Middle East, North Africa and Anatolia were Christianized due to evangelism. Islam burned though these areas and gave the populace a choice, "convert or die", but mainly "die", in the tens of millions. Again, if one wants to bring up the argument of warring Christians, the question is whether it is violating a moral code, or fulfilling one. Not understanding the latter is the basis for the incredulity everytime there is a terrorist attack.

The most egregious difference between these two major religions is the oppression of women in Islam and the continuing practice of slavery in countries like Saudi Arabia.

https://probe.org/not-a-threat-the-contributions-of-christianity-to-western-society/

Perhaps the area in which Christianity has been the most vociferously attacked in this century has been the area of science. Religion and science are thought by many to be like oil and water; the two simply don’t mix. Religion is thought to offer superstition while science offers facts.

First, Christianity provided important presuppositions of science. The Bible teaches that nature is real, not an illusion. It teaches that is has value and that it is good to work with nature. Historically this was an advance over pagan superstitions because the latter saw nature as something to be worshipped or as something filled with spirits which weren’t to be angered. As one theologian wrote, “Nature was thus abruptly desacralized, stripped of many of its arbitrary, unpredictable, and doubtless terrifying aspects.

Christians are often accused of trying to ram their morality down people’s throats. In some instances this might accurately describe what some Christians have done. But for the most part, I believe, the criticism follows our simple declaration of what we believe is right and wrong and our participation in the political and social arenas to see such standards codified and enforced.

The question that needs to be answered is whether the high standards of morality taught in Scripture have served society well. Has Christianity served to make individuals and societies better and to provide a better way of life?

In a previous article I wrote briefly about the brutality that characterized Greco-Roman society in Jesus’ day.{15} We often hear about the wondrous advances of that society; but do you know about the cruelty? The Roman games, in which “beasts fought men, men fought men; and the vast audience waited hopefully for the sight of death,”{16} reveal the lust for blood. The practice of child exposure shows the low regard for human life the Romans had. Unwanted babies were left to die on trash heaps. Some of these were taken to be slaves or prostitutes.{17} It was distinctly Christian beliefs that brought these practices to an end.




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Offline david johnson

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2018, 12:05:44 AM »
The article has confused the mentioned "pastors" with Christianity.  That's like saying the nation has failed because Obama, or Trump, or Clinton, or Nixon, is president.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2018, 02:05:39 AM »
I don't know where to start or whether to even bother, the title of the thread being so offensive. On a forum dedicated mainly to music, if it weren't for the Church, there would not be Western music.

Without the Church the wealth that the Church had would have been elsewhere and it would have been used to produce art, secular or whatever, but something. J. S. Bach's secular cantatas were not paid by the Church. So, we would lose all church cantatas by Bach, but maybe we would have 100 secular cantatas? A lot of classical music has nothing to do with the Church. No doubt we have the Chuch and religion to thank for tons of great art, but to say there would not be art without religion/Church is crazy.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2018, 03:13:12 AM »
Well Christianity has been tamed by the Enlightenment
You mean: all major Enlightenment thinkers were Christian, as abundantly - but unintentionally, as he himself is liking atheists and 'radicals' only, but couldn't find enough of them - proven by Jonathan Israel's Enlightenment Trilogy. You cannot make tigers or Christians 'tame' themselves; indeed the whole 'taming' idea is an absurd myth. And at the other hand: weren't many Enlightement ideas leading to the horrors of the 20th Century?  :-X
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2018, 04:56:04 AM »
And at the other hand: weren't many Enlightement ideas leading to the horrors of the 20th Century?  :-X

"Secular" can be substituted for "Enlightenment".
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2018, 05:07:51 AM »
Without the Church the wealth that the Church had would have been elsewhere and it would have been used to produce art, secular or whatever, but something. J. S. Bach's secular cantatas were not paid by the Church. So, we would lose all church cantatas by Bach, but maybe we would have 100 secular cantatas? A lot of classical music has nothing to do with the Church. No doubt we have the Chuch and religion to thank for tons of great art, but to say there would not be art without religion/Church is crazy.

The Roman Empire was fabulously rich and so were other cultures, so what is your point?

You may dislike it all you want, but you can't get away from Western Civilization being bound up with Christian values. The development of harmony had its roots in medieval organum with the need to avoid the diminished 5th that happens with parallel melodic lines a 5th or 4th apart. The whole line of development leading to Bach several centuries was rooted in Church music, could not have been otherwise.

However, I decided to cut and paste the paragraphs about taking nature as an entity to be studied, not worshipped, while thinking of you because most of the time you don't see the connection between objective scientific inquiry and the mentality that sanctioned it. Of course, the Greeks had much to do with it but this was not dismissed by the Church, but rather encouraged.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2018, 05:13:07 AM »
"Secular" can be substituted for "Enlightenment".
No, it can't and makes very little sense at all (except as another typical myth): everywhere in Europe and America the Enlightenment was rather the opposite of 'secular' in the religious sense - and is confusing the 18th Century with the 20th.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2018, 05:14:09 AM »
You mean: all major Enlightenment thinkers were Christian, as abundantly - but unintentionally, as he himself is liking atheists and 'radicals' only, but couldn't find enough of them - proven by Jonathan Israel's Enlightenment Trilogy. You cannot make tigers or Christians 'tame' themselves; indeed the whole 'taming' idea is an absurd myth. And at the other hand: weren't many Enlightement ideas leading to the horrors of the 20th Century?  :-X

     What is called civilization preceded the dictatorships of monotheism, who then claim credit for civilizing, and even for democracy and humanism built upon the refutation of authoritarian rule. The religionists got us coming and going, we're supposed to believe. Before the dictators we couldn't have an ethics (isn't it like dictators to tell us how indispensable they are!) and when the dictators are overthrown they claim credit for producing the people and processes that overthrew them, which isn't even false even if it is hilarious! Yes, religionists are really good at the credit claiming business.

     There's a better way of understanding the role of religions in cultural transmission, not as originators but as vessels for ideas and social structures that transcend the claims particular cults make.
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2018, 05:28:32 AM »
While we are on the topic of religious fundamentalism ...

Serialism Has Failed
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2018, 06:06:42 AM »
The Roman Empire was fabulously rich and so were other cultures, so what is your point?

You may dislike it all you want, but you can't get away from Western Civilization being bound up with Christian values. The development of harmony had its roots in medieval organum with the need to avoid the diminished 5th that happens with parallel melodic lines a 5th or 4th apart. The whole line of development leading to Bach several centuries was rooted in Church music, could not have been otherwise.

First, Christian values have never had much to do with the Church, either in what it taught or the actions it took.

The whole line of development leading to Bach was not rooted in Church music. Secular music at the courts was as advanced as sacred music and often was more innovative and forward looking. Had the Church not sucked up the resources of society, musicians would have gone to secular sources for support. In general, the Church has been a huge drain on human resources and progress.       

Offline Christo

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2018, 08:34:07 AM »
     What is called civilization preceded the dictatorships of monotheism, who then claim credit for civilizing, and even for democracy and humanism built upon the refutation of authoritarian rule. The religionists got us coming and going, we're supposed to believe. Before the dictators we couldn't have an ethics (isn't it like dictators to tell us how indispensable they are!) and when the dictators are overthrown they claim credit for producing the people and processes that overthrew them, which isn't even false even if it is hilarious! Yes, religionists are really good at the credit claiming business.

     There's a better way of understanding the role of religions in cultural transmission, not as originators but as vessels for ideas and social structures that transcend the claims particular cults make.
Ah, good old Rousseau again! The noble savage myth. #funny
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2018, 10:03:03 AM »
The most interesting, if obtuse, thing about this thread, a misfired riposte to Abe’s Islam thread, is that Abe cited a case where Islam, which demands submission, actually failed — it failed to extract submission from a woman who made her own choices instead.

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Offline Christo

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Re: Christianity has failed
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2018, 10:27:08 AM »
While we are on the topic of religious fundamentalism ...

Serialism Has Failed
It has, miserably.
The most interesting, if obtuse, thing about this thread, a misfired riposte to Abe’s Islam thread, is that Abe cited a case where Islam, which demands submission, actually failed — it failed to extract submission from a woman who made her own choices instead.
Logic or consistency have no place in The Diner>:D
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948