Author Topic: Thirty three and a third.  (Read 2653 times)

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Offline aligreto

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2018, 10:42:41 AM »
I didn't own a CD player until quite recently. The reason I got one is I felt I was missing out on music and artists of the last thirty odd years. As I said I have no wish to score points on either as to which is best. Two things struck me though, music itself, or rather the way it is played, has changed. The HIP movement has had a noticeable positive affect in the intervening years. CD sound has improved, the one thing that bothers me with the medium is ironically, background noise! The music emerges from a blackness, my wife has noticed the same thing. Excessive surface noise from vinyl is usually a sign of a poorly setup or matched system. Get that right, and train your brain to ignore the odd pop and click, and then a LP record produces a natural organic sound.

Two very valid points highlighted above with which I heartily agree. The friend that I referred to above has minimal interest in Classical Music so for him it is not an issue. I would not want to be without my CD collection either.
The ability to talk comes with knowledge. The ability to listen comes with wisdom.

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2018, 04:12:23 AM »
I don't think I have heard a Philips recording with better sound. Fascinating to hear Bach (both) filtered through Mozart.


Offline aligreto

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2018, 07:48:04 AM »
Cross post from the Listening Thread:


Quote
Handel: Messiah [Beecham]


   


This is an interesting historical performance. There is no booklet with the set unfortunately so I do not know the year of the performance. It is an enjoyable performance, one of its time, but obviously quite different in presentation from today’s period performances. We are also treated to an interesting introduction [spoken by Beecham himself] which discusses the balance required between choral and orchestral forces in this work which is interesting in itself for that time.


This is among the oldest vinyl that I have in my collection. The set of 4 LPs are housed in 4 sturdy cardboard pages that are hinged to a metal bar inside giving a book effect; a legacy of the old 78 presentations.
The ability to talk comes with knowledge. The ability to listen comes with wisdom.

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2018, 12:32:52 AM »
Cross post from the Listening Thread:



This is among the oldest vinyl that I have in my collection. The set of 4 LPs are housed in 4 sturdy cardboard pages that are hinged to a metal bar inside giving a book effect; a legacy of the old 78 presentations.

My first reaction was they were a set of 78's but then read the small print. Must be very early. Going by the date helpfully given, could it be possible it was simultaneous release on 78 and 33 1/3 ? Which would explain the unusual packaging.

Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2018, 12:42:23 AM »
One of the greatest recordings ever made in any era, in any medium, is Janos Starker's early 50s recording of the Kodaly sonata for unaccompanied Cello Op. 8, originally recorded on the Period label. It was reissued a number of times on this label, but I have the first one--which was an extremely lucky find. The sound quality is astounding; I have seen people's jaws drop upon hearing this played on my system. The ability of certain early 50s recording engineers to capture the gestalt and timbral accuracy, and immediacy of certain instruments was really phenomenal. (Compare to the sounds you hear in a modern movie theater, which to my ears are horrifically distorted and ugly)

The idea about music coming out of blackness is an interesting one; the medium of vinyl itself has a certain sonic texture of its own, as does canvas as a medium for painting, celluloid for movies, and even stone or wood for three dimensional objects. New vinyl pressings can be extremely quiet, but I actually find the little bit of noise to be a natural and comforting background. In Photoshop, there is actually a feature to add grain to an image, as some people like the texture imparted by the film itself; and indeed in digital image editing, noise reduction and sharpness are always at odds. I am also very drawn to the sound of the rain, which is very much like some vinyl sounds. When I was a kid I used to like to turn the TV to snow and listen.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 12:44:11 AM by XB-70 Valkyrie »
If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2018, 12:52:52 AM »
One of the greatest recordings ever made in any era, in any medium, is Janos Starker's early 50s recording of the Kodaly sonata for unaccompanied Cello Op. 8, originally recorded on the Period label. It was reissued a number of times on this label, but I have the first one--which was an extremely lucky find. The sound quality is astounding; I have seen people's jaws drop upon hearing this played on my system. The ability of certain early 50s recording engineers to capture the gestalt and timbral accuracy, and immediacy of certain instruments was really phenomenal. (Compare to the sounds you hear in a modern movie theater, which to my ears are horrifically distorted and ugly)

The idea about music coming out of blackness is an interesting one; the medium of vinyl itself has a certain sonic texture of its own, as does canvas as a medium for painting, celluloid for movies, and even stone or wood for three dimensional objects. New vinyl pressings can be extremely quiet, but I actually find the little bit of noise to be a natural and comforting background. In Photoshop, there is actually a feature to add grain to an image, as some people like the texture imparted by the film itself; and indeed in digital image editing, noise reduction and sharpness are always at odds. I am also very drawn to the sound of the rain, which is very much like some vinyl sounds. When I was a kid I used to like to turn the TV to snow and listen.

I think one of the reissues was on Saga who also reissued Starker's two LP's he made for Period of the Bach solo cello suites.

I am pleased you at least made some sense of my "blackness" comment. Perhaps "deadness" is more accurate.

Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2018, 01:10:53 AM »
You may find this book of interest. I am interested too, but I have so many other things to read, I doubt I will get to it. Also, I am not completely sold on all the arguments; I am a professional photo/electron micrographer and amateur landscape photographer, and I very much doubt I will ever go back to film.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revenge-Analog-Real-Things-Matter/dp/1610398211/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543828081&sr=8-1&keywords=revenge+of+analog
If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2018, 01:19:35 AM »
Milos Sadlo is not the most of famous cellists. It was a hard slog for him to achieve what he did. An artist living under the Soviet yoke was not easy unless you were fortunate enough to be an appointed one. As a young cellist he had a big break, his label Supraphon chose him to be soloist in the greatest of all Czech works for cello, Dvorak's concerto. Vaclav Talich was to conduct the Czech Phil. After many hours of rehearsal they were ready to record. At the same time another young, but more famous cellist, happened to be in Prague. Perhaps ordered by Moscow, Supraphon kicked Sadlo out and made a famous recording with Rostropovich. Later, Sadlo did make a recording of Dvorak but Talich was long gone.

Listening to Sadlo playing Bach this story comes to mind. There is a humility in his playing, he is not playing for himself, or even  the listener but for Bach. I looked to see if this set enjoyed a release on CD, I cannot find anything. Can't say I'm surprised.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 08:03:54 AM by Irons »

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2018, 01:25:04 AM »
You may find this book of interest. I am interested too, but I have so many other things to read, I doubt I will get to it. Also, I am not completely sold on all the arguments; I am a professional photo/electron micrographer and amateur landscape photographer, and I very much doubt I will ever go back to film.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revenge-Analog-Real-Things-Matter/dp/1610398211/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1543828081&sr=8-1&keywords=revenge+of+analog

Thanks. I listened to an interview on the radio recently with David Bailey and he said he would never use a digital camera.

Offline Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2018, 02:03:47 PM »
I don't think I have heard a Philips recording with better sound. Fascinating to hear Bach (both) filtered through Mozart.



Nostalgia rush!

I had that LP, and I have the CD, which was mastered a bit over-bright and doesn't have quite the silkiness of the LP (as I remember it, anyway). In the end, I don't think the performance is the best available. The same forces were more at home in the Mozart recordings, I think (trio, Quintets with friends).

Here's one I wish I had back (well, no turntable).


« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:40:50 PM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 01:01:46 AM »
Nostalgia rush!


Here's one I wish I had back (well, no turntable).



I have the box set which sold like hot cakes! No.4 and No.5 seem to be the most popular, I like No.1 very much. Could be argued Mozart's greatest chamber works.

Offline Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 01:33:04 AM »
Here's a record which I am sure is better on LP than CD.



I won't comment on why.  :)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 01:39:48 AM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2018, 05:00:38 AM »
Very nice, and the music is not bad either!

One big advantage of LP over CD is cover art. Nothing could possibly compare with this one!


Offline aligreto

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2018, 08:35:16 AM »

   

 
My first reaction was they were a set of 78's but then read the small print. Must be very early. Going by the date helpfully given, could it be possible it was simultaneous release on 78 and 33 1/3 ? Which would explain the unusual packaging.

Good point; I did not think of that.
The ability to talk comes with knowledge. The ability to listen comes with wisdom.

Offline Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2018, 09:32:57 AM »
Good point; I did not think of that.

It's been released on CD.

https://www.amazon.com/Handel-Messiah-Elsie-Suddaby/dp/B00000FDCF/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1543944291&sr=8-5&keywords=handel+beecham+messiah+royal+philharmonic

One of the comments describes it as a 1947 recording. That would put it before the first LP was marketed, in 1949 and the transfer is described as done from 78 rpm discs.

By that time analog tape recorders existed, but it may be that the original recordings were cut into discs rather than put on tape. Although the LP became commercial in 1949 vinyl discs running at 33 1/3 were in common use for radio transcription and other professional sound production purposes as early as the 1930s.


Offline aligreto

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2018, 09:48:45 AM »
It's been released on CD.

https://www.amazon.com/Handel-Messiah-Elsie-Suddaby/dp/B00000FDCF/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1543944291&sr=8-5&keywords=handel+beecham+messiah+royal+philharmonic

One of the comments describes it as a 1947 recording. That would put it before the first LP was marketed, in 1949 and the transfer is described as done from 78 rpm discs.

By that time analog tape recorders existed, but it may be that the original recordings were cut into discs rather than put on tape. Although the LP became commercial in 1949 vinyl discs running at 33 1/3 were in common use for radio transcription and other professional sound production purposes as early as the 1930s.

Thank you very much for the additional information which is very interesting. Perhaps it explains why it is a 4 X LP set which I did not previously mention.
The ability to talk comes with knowledge. The ability to listen comes with wisdom.

Offline Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2018, 10:00:21 AM »
Thank you very much for the additional information which is very interesting. Perhaps it explains why it is a 4 X LP set which I did not previously mention.

I remember reading somewhere that since they did not have sound "editing" in those days and disc cutting could not be interrupted they would master an 20 minutes LP from 3 minute shellac discs by having an array phonographs cued up.  When as each shellac disc ended they would switch over to the next disc.

Offline aligreto

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2018, 11:10:01 AM »
I remember reading somewhere that since they did not have sound "editing" in those days and disc cutting could not be interrupted they would master an 20 minutes LP from 3 minute shellac discs by having an array phonographs cued up.  When as each shellac disc ended they would switch over to the next disc.

Thank you once again for the interesting information. It was, obviously, a different world back then but they still managed to achieve wonderful things.
The ability to talk comes with knowledge. The ability to listen comes with wisdom.

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2018, 02:53:39 PM »
This may have been tried in the past and sunk without trace.

Is there any enthusiasm with forum members for a thread on not only the LP record but the music of the era they were produced? A platform to express all views, even if you cannot stand them (an understandable view).

You might be interested in this thread I started years ago - it's about LPs that were never reissued, or are hard to find:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22613.msg765709.html#msg765709
formerly VELIMIR (before that, Spitvalve)

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Offline Irons

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Re: Thirty three and a third.
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2018, 01:36:57 AM »
You might be interested in this thread I started years ago - it's about LPs that were never reissued, or are hard to find:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22613.msg765709.html#msg765709

What goes around, comes around! The sadly defunct magazine "Classical Record Collector" made up a list of recordings of note that never made it to CD. If I can find that issue (out of 81 and no index) I will post. Reading through the thread; I have the Barber/Schuman recording and agree it being very good. I'm alerted to the Dezso Ranki Haydn piano sonatas sets. Will definitely look for those. It is common knowledge that the Decca engineers were not overly impressed with the RCA Dynagroove process. Although RCA recordings pressed by Decca for the UK sport the Dynagroove logo the pressings are not.

 

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