Author Topic: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets  (Read 2499 times)

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2019, 08:41:25 AM »
I am not too fond of Thielemann (neither musically nor personally) but to brand everyone who holds a few conservative positions slightly to the right of the "mainstream" (often including things that actually were centrist mainstream positions only 20 years ago) as Nazi or at least close is not only ridiculous but also dangerous and a very serious underestimation of the terror of the actual Nazis as well as some Neonazis. (It is also a serious underestimation of the actual control and manipulation perpetrated by the huge apparatuses (including but not restricted to their intelligence agencies) of the current mainstream political forces that often borders on the totalitarian. As some wise men said already in the 60s or so, one should be less afraid of the fascist in the guise of the fascist than of the one wearing the mask of the democrat.)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
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The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Biffo

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2019, 08:56:06 AM »
I wonder how many people who accuse Thielemann (mainly and mostly on hearsay) of being right-wing, or even worse, a Nazi in disguise, have actually read his article which provoked the whole kerfuffle. Here it is:

https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle

Google Translate is your friend and does a reasonably good job.

I find nothing there that I cannot subscribe to myself.

Plus: he is often accused of having a repertoire limited to only the Austro-German music. But, by Jove, mastering this "limited" repertoire can be the job of a lifetime. And is it not amusing to see people for whom Beethoven and Bruckner are the daily bread-and-butter suddenly taking issues with someone who concentrate his efforts exactly in this direction?

As for his conducting the New Year Concert, he was certainly not the most charismatic or the funniest, but he did a decent job, not least because of coming up with no less than six premieres (the Helmesberger's Elfenreigen was my favorite).

NB: This post is not specifically addressed to you personally.

Thanks for the link; I haven't time to read it today but I thought it was his reference to 'the Jew Barenboim' that caused the kerfuffle.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2019, 09:02:53 AM »
to brand everyone who holds a few conservative positions slightly to the right of the "mainstream" (often including things that actually were centrist mainstream positions only 20 years ago) as Nazi or at least close is not only ridiculous but also dangerous and a very serious underestimation of the terror of the actual Nazis as well as some Neonazis. (It is also a serious underestimation of the actual control and manipulation perpetrated by the huge apparatuses (including but not restricted to their intelligence agencies) of the current mainstream political forces that often borders on the totalitarian. As some wise men said already in the 60s or so, one should be less afraid of the fascist in the guise of the fascist than of the one wearing the mask of the democrat.)

Have we been separated at birth?  :)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2019, 09:09:18 AM »
Thanks for the link; I haven't time to read it today but I thought it was his reference to 'the Jew Barenboim' that caused the kerfuffle.

https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210

Excerpt:

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'

"Medtner [is] one of  the few oases of the old musical outlook --- when music was music and not a sport; when it still served as the language of expression; when it was permissible and not ridiculous to feel, and to disclose one's feelings" - Leonid Sabaneev

Offline Biffo

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2019, 09:14:37 AM »
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210

Excerpt:

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'

I distinctly remember the quote and the fuss - it seems different from the report above. Possibly more 'fake' news. I don't have time today look any further into it but thanks for the link.

Edit: It seems the quote came from a German politician, Klaus Landowsky, comparing Thielemann and Barenboim.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 09:19:30 AM by Biffo »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2019, 11:08:03 AM »
I dissent on using the term Brucknerization, but I agree on the main point.


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PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2019, 05:07:52 PM »

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'
What was Gunter Wand's repertoire? I don't recall anyone branding him sort of Great White Hope.

Offline Ken B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2019, 06:57:17 PM »
I am not too fond of Thielemann (neither musically nor personally) but to brand everyone who holds a few conservative positions slightly to the right of the "mainstream" (often including things that actually were centrist mainstream positions only 20 years ago) as Nazi or at least close is not only ridiculous but also dangerous and a very serious underestimation of the terror of the actual Nazis as well as some Neonazis. (It is also a serious underestimation of the actual control and manipulation perpetrated by the huge apparatuses (including but not restricted to their intelligence agencies) of the current mainstream political forces that often borders on the totalitarian. As some wise men said already in the 60s or so, one should be less afraid of the fascist in the guise of the fascist than of the one wearing the mask of the democrat.)

Yes. It's de facto Holocaust denial, and we have more a tiny bit of that at GMG.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2019, 01:45:44 AM »
I probably don't understand the sarcasm. Note that Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany (freedom of speech is severely restricted in these things here), so it is not to be taken lightly and even vague hints in such a direction would be the social death of a public figure (even a right wing party like the AfD would exclude such deniers).

I don't recall the details of the conflict with Barenboim. But the latter is and was an extremely powerful figure in Berlin due to his longstanding position at the opera. And Thielemann apparently is some kind of divo and they clashed in Berlin when Thielemann was at the Deutsche Oper (the one in the West) before he settled for Dresden which seems a very good fit musically and temperamentally. Thielemann made a few more unfortunate remarks and also conducted some march that was a Nazi favorite. But again, this was far too clumsy to serve as "dog whistling".
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2019, 06:45:43 AM »
I probably don't understand the sarcasm. Note that Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany (freedom of speech is severely restricted in these things here), so it is not to be taken lightly and even vague hints in such a direction would be the social death of a public figure (even a right wing party like the AfD would exclude such deniers).

I don't recall the details of the conflict with Barenboim. But the latter is and was an extremely powerful figure in Berlin due to his longstanding position at the opera. And Thielemann apparently is some kind of divo and they clashed in Berlin when Thielemann was at the Deutsche Oper (the one in the West) before he settled for Dresden which seems a very good fit musically and temperamentally. Thielemann made a few more unfortunate remarks and also conducted some march that was a Nazi favorite. But again, this was far too clumsy to serve as "dog whistling".

I wasn’t being sarcastic. I agree calling people you don’t like Nazis is effectively denying the seriousness and extent of Nazi crimes.
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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2019, 10:06:09 AM »
I wasn’t being sarcastic. I agree calling people you don’t like Nazis is effectively denying the seriousness and extent of Nazi crimes.
Does he qualify as a Nazi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA

Offline king ubu

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2019, 06:16:28 PM »
I wonder how many people who accuse Thielemann (mainly and mostly on hearsay) of being right-wing, or even worse, a Nazi in disguise, have actually read his article which provoked the whole kerfuffle. Here it is:

https://www.zeit.de/2015/04/pegida-dialog-christian-thielemann-dresdner-staatskapelle

Well, the latest part of the kerfuffle, I guess? Thielemann has provoked harsh reactions for over a decade (and I guess at least in earlier years enjoyed acting as agent provocateur). Not that I'm interested in any of it, but just to say this didn't begin in 2015 but many years before.
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2019, 06:20:42 PM »
Does he qualify as a Nazi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2lfZg-apSA
Good question actually. But they are not actually calling him a Nazi. They are being ironic. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)
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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2019, 06:43:05 PM »
Good question actually. But they are not actually calling him a Nazi. They are being ironic. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)
Newman actually calls him a "soup Nazi" in the final seconds of the clip, more of a catchy nickname than being ironic I think.

Offline Ken B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2019, 06:54:50 PM »
Newman actually calls him a "soup Nazi" in the final seconds of the clip, more of a catchy nickname than being ironic I think.
You think?
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2019, 07:15:23 PM »
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5386210

Excerpt:

An Italian conductor conducts an Italian repertoire and its okay. A Russian plays a Russian repertoire, a Frenchman a French. But if a young German says, `I feel okay with the German repertoire,' then he is told: `Something is wrong here.'

Who tells anybody that “something is wrong” if they “feel okay with the German repertoire?” There is a long list of German composers, most of whose music can be performed without any trace of controversy.

If someone objects to Pfitzner but not Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Strauss, Hindemith, et al., then it’s fairly clear that the objection to Pfitzner is for some reason other than that he was German.

Offline Ken B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2019, 07:45:58 PM »
Who tells anybody that “something is wrong” if they “feel okay with the German repertoire?” There is a long list of German composers, most of whose music can be performed without any trace of controversy.

If someone objects to Pfitzner but not Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Strauss, Hindemith, et al., then it’s fairly clear that the objection to Pfitzner is for some reason other than that he was German.
Of course the objection to Pfitzner is more than that he is a German. But the objection under discussion isn’t to Pfitzner. It is to someone else choosing to play Pfitzner. It is one thing to say, I won’t read Dashiell Hammett because he was a Stalinist, it is quite another to tell others “you shouldn’t read Dashiell Hammett”. Or you shouldn’t publish him.
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2019, 11:20:30 PM »
Of course the objection to Pfitzner is more than that he is a German. But the objection under discussion isn’t to Pfitzner. It is to someone else choosing to play Pfitzner. It is one thing to say, I won’t read Dashiell Hammett because he was a Stalinist, it is quite another to tell others “you shouldn’t read Dashiell Hammett”. Or you shouldn’t publish him.

Yes, that’s a much stronger argument. If that had been quoted instead of Thielemann’s victim act about German repertoire, I would not have commented.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2019, 03:38:00 AM »
Yes, that’s a much stronger argument. If that had been quoted instead of Thielemann’s victim act about German repertoire, I would not have commented.

If you had read the whole Haaretz article before commenting you'd have noticed that's exactly the type of argument Thielemann makes.
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Offline Pat B

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Re: Vienna PO's New Year's Concert --- As Fake and as Anti-Viennese as it gets
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2019, 07:45:23 AM »
If you had read the whole Haaretz article before commenting you'd have noticed that's exactly the type of argument Thielemann makes.

I did read the whole article.

His larger point was that he separates the composition from the composer’s politics. (But apparently not from the composer’s nationality, without explaining or even acknowledging this discrepancy.) This too is weaker than what Ken wrote.

I was responding to the quote you chose. If you believe that quote is not representative of his position, then maybe you should have chosen a different one.