Author Topic: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord  (Read 177053 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2286
  • Location: usa
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1180 on: October 01, 2017, 03:47:00 AM »
Yes, I like it as much as Thurston Dart and less than Julian Perkins.
I should give Perkins another chance. I see I already have the first suite from Perkins. With Leonhardt's second and a little Tilney and Dart I shall have a clavichord compilation of the French.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 03:50:02 AM by milk »

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2286
  • Location: usa
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1181 on: October 01, 2017, 04:28:02 AM »
Yes, I like it as much as Thurston Dart and less than Julian Perkins.
For some reason I find Tilney more pleasurable. I'm listening to the fourth and fifth suites. Something about Perkins just doesn't get through to me. Tilney is subtle but sensitive. What is this style? It sings. I am feeling as I listen to Tilney that it's special.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:38:08 AM by milk »

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9469
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1182 on: October 01, 2017, 04:45:48 AM »
For some reason I find Tilney more pleasurable. I'm listening to the fourth suite. Something about Perkins just doesn't get through to me. Tilney is subtle but sensitive. His air for instance. What is this style? It sings.

There's a recording of 818a, which is like a French Suite, on clavichord by Ilton Wjunisky.

Does anyone know about Hogwood's clavichord recording of the second violin partita, BWV 1004? Is it Bach's transcription? On The Secret Bach. The chaconne is good.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 04:47:20 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6722
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1183 on: October 01, 2017, 04:52:30 AM »
There's a recording of 818a, which is like a French Suite, on clavichord by Ilton Wjunisky.

And 819 and 823. Though not the most subtle clavichordplaying I have heard.

Quote from: Mandryka
Does anyone know about Hogwood's clavichord recording of the second violin partita, BWV 1004? Is it Bach's transcription? On The Secret Bach. The chaconne is good.

Arranged by Mortensen, probably Lars Ulrik Mortensen, see below:

I have heard Mortensen play his own arrangement of the chaconne, very impressive.


http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Metronome/METCD1056
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Jo498

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3779
  • Location: Germany
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1184 on: December 17, 2017, 06:57:44 AM »
I recently got the cheap reissue with Walcha's ca. 1958-61 (EMI, now Warner) recordings. The sound is not as bad as I had expected although the non-authentic instrument is fairly closely recorded. I find it perfectly listenable and only occasionally unpleasant and a little tiring when going for a whole disc. (Although the two Vanguard discs (Couperin/Rameau) with Heiller from about the same time ar fare superior in sound, probably not only because of the instrument but also mic placement and recording tech.)
Premont and others have characterised Walcha's style elsewhere. Severe, not playful, sometimes stiff. Generally fast, especially no lingering in sarabandes or some of the fugues that are often played very slowly (like b minor WTC I). Superlative clarity of voices.
His approach works very well in most of the WTC and the more severe suites (like English 5+6 or Partita 6). It can seem too strict and stiff in the more playful music of the French suites or the Italian concerto.

For the current price of less than 30 EUR for 13 discs comprising WTC I+II, Inventions/Sinfonias, French and English Suites, Partitas, GBV, Italian concerto, French Ouverture and Chromatic Fantasy+Fugue this is a steal, even if one likes only half of it.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1185 on: December 17, 2017, 06:26:33 PM »
I recently got the cheap reissue with Walcha's ca. 1958-61 (EMI, now Warner) recordings. The sound is not as bad as I had expected although the non-authentic instrument is fairly closely recorded. I find it perfectly listenable and only occasionally unpleasant and a little tiring when going for a whole disc. (Although the two Vanguard discs (Couperin/Rameau) with Heiller from about the same time ar fare superior in sound, probably not only because of the instrument but also mic placement and recording tech.)
Premont and others have characterised Walcha's style elsewhere. Severe, not playful, sometimes stiff. Generally fast, especially no lingering in sarabandes or some of the fugues that are often played very slowly (like b minor WTC I). Superlative clarity of voices.
His approach works very well in most of the WTC and the more severe suites (like English 5+6 or Partita 6). It can seem too strict and stiff in the more playful music of the French suites or the Italian concerto.

For the current price of less than 30 EUR for 13 discs comprising WTC I+II, Inventions/Sinfonias, French and English Suites, Partitas, GBV, Italian concerto, French Ouverture and Chromatic Fantasy+Fugue this is a steal, even if one likes only half of it.

Agree with 99% of that.  My only disagreement is that I found none of the discs "tiring" to my ears.

Offline Jo498

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3779
  • Location: Germany
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1186 on: December 17, 2017, 11:46:12 PM »
The "tiring" referred mostly to the sound of the harpsichord and the recording quality, none of which is Walcha's fault and as I said it is not all that bad and even better than I expected from the vintage.
Still, if one usually listens to more authentic instruments recorded with more space around them, the difference is obviously there and the sound experience of the old recording can be tiring for me.
The relentlessness and occasional stiffness of the playing might also be a factor but neither should distract anyone.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline San Antone

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6139
    • Highway 80 Stories
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Debussy
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1187 on: December 18, 2017, 02:12:21 AM »
Currently I have been listening to and enjoying Kenneth Weiss play Bach (and Scarlatti):

 

Offline Jo498

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3779
  • Location: Germany
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1188 on: December 29, 2017, 02:36:37 AM »
One strange thing or maybe a transfer/editing error? is that in the first English suite Walcha apparently skips the first courante, the second courante and the first double and plays only the second double (with the permanent runs of quavers in the bass) of these four courante variants.
Can anybody check this with an LP or older/alternative CD version of the Walch/EMI English suites?

In the saraband of the 3rd suite he more plausibly plays the "agréments de la même sarabande" instead of repeats, i.e. he plays the plain version and instead of a repeat the ornamented version.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 03:58:27 AM by Jo498 »
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline bioluminescentsquid

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 178
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1189 on: December 29, 2017, 03:38:30 AM »
I recently got the cheap reissue with Walcha's ca. 1958-61 (EMI, now Warner) recordings. The sound is not as bad as I had expected although the non-authentic instrument is fairly closely recorded. I find it perfectly listenable and only occasionally unpleasant and a little tiring when going for a whole disc. (Although the two Vanguard discs (Couperin/Rameau) with Heiller from about the same time ar fare superior in sound, probably not only because of the instrument but also mic placement and recording tech.)
Premont and others have characterised Walcha's style elsewhere. Severe, not playful, sometimes stiff. Generally fast, especially no lingering in sarabandes or some of the fugues that are often played very slowly (like b minor WTC I). Superlative clarity of voices.
His approach works very well in most of the WTC and the more severe suites (like English 5+6 or Partita 6). It can seem too strict and stiff in the more playful music of the French suites or the Italian concerto.

For the current price of less than 30 EUR for 13 discs comprising WTC I+II, Inventions/Sinfonias, French and English Suites, Partitas, GBV, Italian concerto, French Ouverture and Chromatic Fantasy+Fugue this is a steal, even if one likes only half of it.

Isn't the WTC recorded on the Ahaus Ruckers?

Offline Jo498

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3779
  • Location: Germany
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1190 on: December 29, 2017, 03:59:24 AM »
This is probably the later Archiv recording; the EMI are all on the same "modern" instrument, I believe.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6722
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1191 on: December 29, 2017, 04:05:21 AM »
One strange thing or maybe a transfer/editing error? is that in the first English suite Walcha apparently skips the first courante, the second courant and the first double and only plays only the second double (with the permanent runs of quavers in the bass) of these four courante variants.
Can anybody check this with an LP or older/alternative CD version of the Walch/EMI English suites?.

On the first release (German Odeon / Electrola  LP about 1960), which I purchased 1964, these courantes were also missing. I am quite sure, that he omitted them deliberately. Perhaps he thought that the doubles contained too much unvaried repetition.

The way of playing the sarabande of the third suite (and also the second suite) is rather common, also to day.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6722
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1192 on: December 29, 2017, 04:10:07 AM »
This is probably the later Archiv recording; the EMI are all on the same "modern" instrument, I believe.

Yes, all the EMI recordings were made on a revival two manual Ammer instrument (16' , 8' , 8', 4' ).
In the later recording for Archiv Book I was recorded on a Ruckers and Book II on a Hemsch. But still it was not truly authentic, because these two instruments were equally tuned for these particular recordings.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Jo498

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3779
  • Location: Germany
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1193 on: December 29, 2017, 04:49:27 AM »
Thanks! Good to know that it is not a fault of the most recent CD box.
The procedure to use the "agréments" in the repeats of the sarabandes seems very sensible especially if one does not add spontaneous/additional ornaments in the repeats anyway.
That courante with two doubles in the first suite can get tiring but I think skipping most of it is going a little too far...
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9469
Re: Bach on the harpsichord, lute-harpsichord, clavichord
« Reply #1194 on: May 16, 2018, 08:22:53 PM »


I have heard Mortensen play his own arrangement of the chaconne, very impressive.




And now we can all hear it. Judging by the comments on YouTube, Pierre Hantai agrees with you.

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/P7E_nfGTBU8" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://youtube.com/v/P7E_nfGTBU8</a>
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:24:54 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen