Author Topic: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations  (Read 966 times)

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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2019, 12:07:57 AM »
The bolded words could have been taken out of my mouth.
As far as presenters pronouncing names 'correctly', for me it depends. Some seem to make it sound quite natural, which is fine, others seem uncomfortable and/or pretentious, which just seems a touch silly.

... :-[ .. Though I probably err towards three syllables (if that's what is being presumed as correct here?) rather than four, when I'm in a hurry, but normally it's four. So am not only uneducated, but inconsistent too.  :P

I also hang around a bit on the first syllable of Chay-kovsky, which may also be deemed a breech of etiquette by those with higher standards than me. It's ingrained now and feels odd saying it any other way.

Very true! And I thought it was just me being a bit weird.


Not a musical one, but I struggle a bit with the name 'Boris Johnson', it normally comes out as 'Egregious twat' ..

I have the same mispronunciation problem with BJ.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Jo498

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2019, 12:47:19 AM »
What language is that?  :)

I messed it up but the modern transliteration uses c with the caron or "hacek" (known from Czech) on top for the kyrillic letter Tchaikovsky's last name begins with. This will not replace the common transliterations but it is more precise.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2019, 01:10:52 AM »
Which boils down to what we all know already: English spelling is anything but logical.  :D
With this wholeheartedly agree do I!!!! :)

I do disagree with the spelling of Rachmaninov when it is spelled Rachmaninoff. The 'off is pronounced too strongly/too hard a sound (in English) when it is read this way, which distorts the pronunication of his name. Besides, the opposite of Rachmaninoff is Rachmaninon? That just isn't right! :)
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Offline amw

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2019, 01:21:43 AM »
What do you guys think about writing Chaikovsky instead of Tchaikovsky? I am all in its favor
He's under C in the music library at uni, and in my music library as well. Probably if I were writing a scholarly paper about him, I'd spell his name Chaikovsky, & this seems to be consensus in the English-speaking world of Russian music studies (along with, e.g., Musorgsky, Rakhmaninov, etc). We are not quite at the level of German purists who insist on Čajkovskij, Šostakovič, etc, at least not yet.

But he apparently on a personal level preferred the transliteration "Peter Tchaikovsky" and always wrote his name that way in latin script. Same with Sergei Rachmaninov, who apparently preferred "Serge Rachmaninoff". Part of it is obviously French being the language of the European aristocracy at the time, & therefore much more highbrow than e.g. English, the language of damp uncultured beer-drinking boors from the island without art, etc, so names are transcribed as they would appear in French. Similar transcriptions gave us Moussorgsky & Chostakovitch, and would also give us François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc, which still do crop up occasionally. (And did give us Wolfgang Amadé Mozart, whose middle name in the original German would have been Theophilus.)

Offline Biffo

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2019, 01:43:46 AM »
He's under C in the music library at uni, and in my music library as well. Probably if I were writing a scholarly paper about him, I'd spell his name Chaikovsky, & this seems to be consensus in the English-speaking world of Russian music studies (along with, e.g., Musorgsky, Rakhmaninov, etc). We are not quite at the level of German purists who insist on Čajkovskij, Šostakovič, etc, at least not yet.

But he apparently on a personal level preferred the transliteration "Peter Tchaikovsky" and always wrote his name that way in latin script. Same with Sergei Rachmaninov, who apparently preferred "Serge Rachmaninoff". Part of it is obviously French being the language of the European aristocracy at the time, & therefore much more highbrow than e.g. English, the language of damp uncultured beer-drinking boors from the island without art, etc, so names are transcribed as they would appear in French. Similar transcriptions gave us Moussorgsky & Chostakovitch, and would also give us François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc, which still do crop up occasionally. (And did give us Wolfgang Amadé Mozart, whose middle name in the original German would have been Theophilus.)



Mozart's middle name in German is Gottlieb, Theophilus is the Latin form, used on his entry in the church baptismal register. His own preference (post 1777) was Amadé, he only used the pompous Amadeus when he was mocking himself.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 01:51:28 AM by Biffo »

Offline amw

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2019, 02:54:22 AM »
Thanks for the correction. (Greek not Latin though...)

Offline Rinaldo

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2019, 03:37:37 AM »
Throat-warbler Mangrove

*tchortle*

As a Czech, I'm enjoying foreign attempts at "ř" (e.g. Dvořák). Can't blame people giving up entirely and going with a simple "r" – we've invented the ř to torture y'all.

Offline Biffo

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2019, 03:42:29 AM »
Thanks for the correction. (Greek not Latin though...)

Sorry, Greek - his baptismal entry is a bit of a dog's breakfast - Joannes Chrysost[omus] Wolfgangus Theophilus fil[ius] leg[itimus Nob[ilis] D[ominus] Leopoldus Mozart Aulæ Musicus, et Maria Anna Pertlin giuges

Offline Jo498

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2019, 06:41:33 AM »
We are not quite at the level of German purists who insist on Čajkovskij, Šostakovič, etc, at least not yet.
That's the transliteration I wanted to write above, but did not manage, so I deleted it but Florestan was quicker with the quotation

Quote
But he apparently on a personal level preferred the transliteration "Peter Tchaikovsky" and always wrote his name that way in latin script. Same with Sergei Rachmaninov, who apparently preferred "Serge Rachmaninoff". Part of it is obviously French being the language of the European aristocracy at the time, & therefore much more highbrow than e.g. English,
The upper middle class and upper class Russian children in the 19th century had in turn French, German, and English speaking governesses, so they would be fluent in the main Western European languages. French was the most important lingua franca, but the German speaking countries were geographically and culturally closer to Russia, there were many people with German ancestry in Russia, and there were also close ties between the nobility, the Kaiser addressed the Tsar "Dear Niki", even right before the War....
After the revolution there were so many Russians in Berlin that Charlottenburg was called "Charlottengrad" in the 1920s.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2019, 07:05:20 AM »
François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc,

Italian being "the language of music," I sometimes see it as well - e.g. an 18th century English publication of quartets by "the illustrious Giuseppe Haydn."
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Offline Wendell_E

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2019, 02:04:15 AM »
Similar transcriptions gave us Moussorgsky & Chostakovitch, and would also give us François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc, which still do crop up occasionally.

I once saw "Luigi di Beethoven".

Our radio station played a series of the complete Verdi operas for the 100th anniversary of his death. The announcer always pronounced "recitative" as "recititave". She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became  "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot. Speaking of Turandot, the pronunciation of that name have sparked many a heated discussion on the internets.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 02:13:45 AM by Wendell_E »
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Offline Biffo

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2019, 02:55:26 AM »
I once saw "Luigi di Beethoven".

Our radio station played a series of the complete Verdi operas for the 100th anniversary of his death. The announcer always pronounced "recitative" as "recititave". She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became  "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot. Speaking of Turandot, the pronunciation of that name have sparked many a heated discussion on the internets.

Luigi and Louis are the Italian and French equivalents of Ludwig. The first editions of Symphonies 1 & 2, published in Vienna, have a frontispiece in French and the composer as Louis van Beethoven. The mutilated front page of the manuscript of the Eroica Symphony is signed 'Luigi van Beethoven' . Never seen di for van though.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2019, 03:04:55 AM »
Luigi and Louis are the Italian and French equivalents of Ludwig. The first editions of Symphonies 1 & 2, published in Vienna, have a frontispiece in French and the composer as Louis van Beethoven. The mutilated front page of the manuscript of the Eroica Symphony is signed 'Luigi van Beethoven' .

Haydn frequently signed his compositions "di me Giuseppe Haydn".





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Offline amw

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2019, 03:12:04 AM »
She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became  "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot.
As far as opera crossovers go that would be a good idea—all the prima donnas who normally have to die for their tenors instead ditching them and running off together. Perhaps also Figaro and Susanna could show up to play a humiliating trick on Princess Turandot and force her to apologise and/or establish a democracy instead. Off topic though....

Offline André

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2019, 04:45:21 AM »
I once saw "Luigi di Beethoven".

Our radio station played a series of the complete Verdi operas for the 100th anniversary of his death. The announcer always pronounced "recitative" as "recititave". She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became  "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot. Speaking of Turandot, the pronunciation of that name have sparked many a heated discussion on the internets.

When I was young, a radio station broadcast pop fare, switching to classical at the stroke of midnight. The announcer used the name "Mendelssohn and Bartholdy" to introduce the Italian symphony  ::). He would also stumble on Moussorgsky, calling him "Moussogorsky".

Offline Ken B

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2019, 06:48:14 AM »
Nearly everyone except early music aficionados gets Dufay wrong.
Or Kodaly.
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2019, 03:18:29 PM »
Nearly everyone except early music aficionados gets Dufay wrong.
Or Kodaly.

I know the Guillaume part, but how should Dufay be pronounced?

Offline Ken B

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2019, 03:20:57 PM »
I know the Guillaume part, but how should Dufay be pronounced?
Three syllables.
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Your favorite (or not so favorite) musical mispronunciations
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2019, 03:26:33 PM »
Three syllables.

Like "Du-fa-ee"...?

Offline Ken B

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