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Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 204907 times)

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Offline madaboutmahler

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1660 on: April 30, 2012, 10:43:24 AM »
Rattle on the Ninth Symphony, Fourth Movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z9Jlgh_gpSs

Really fascinating. I love listening to Sir Simon!
Thanks for sharing, Colin.

I see that this is going to be released in just under a month. I'd certainly be interested in getting it...

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Offline Leo K.

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1661 on: April 30, 2012, 12:10:13 PM »
Really fascinating. I love listening to Sir Simon!
Thanks for sharing, Colin.

I see that this is going to be released in just under a month. I'd certainly be interested in getting it...



I'm really looking forward to this one, just pre-ordered and await with anticipation. I've heard two other finale reconstructions (from 2005 and 2008) from the same team of editors (the law office of Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs :)).

Looks as though more changes and revisions were made to the coda. This is real exciting!

I have to say, hearing the music to the Bruckner 9 finale is an absolute revelation. To my mind, the music fits into the sound world of the B9, and is as important to the history of music as the unfinished Mahler 10. Attempts to perform it make sense.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:13:41 PM by Leo K »

Offline madaboutmahler

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1662 on: April 30, 2012, 12:12:02 PM »
I'm really looking forward to this one, just pre-ordered and await with anticipation. I've heard two other finale reconstructions (from 2005 and 2008) from the same team of editors (the law office of Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs :)).

Looks as though more changes and revisions were made to the coda. This is real exciting!

I haven't heard any of the finale reconstructions yet, so am very excited as well! :)
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Offline Lisztianwagner

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1663 on: May 03, 2012, 11:25:00 AM »
Very nice.....Bruckners Abtei. :)

Anton Bruckner is one of my favourite Austrian composers, along with Mahler, Mozart and J. Strauss. His music is very passionate and thrilling, extremely impressive; it expresses deep beauty and great intensity, with a rich harmonic language, a splendid, powerful orchestration, an excellent counterpoint texture and beautiful, surprising timbric variations. I have always appreciated the expressive strenght Bruckner's pieces are full of.
Bruckner's characteristic use of the false climaxes in the symphonies is absolutely brilliant, I adore those powerfully emotional crescendi which sound flowing into great finali whereas the phrase ends with a pianissimo, a pause or a fast diminuendo; absolutely beautiful and striking.

It goes without saying that my favourite Bruckner interpreter is Herbert von Karajan; his recording of the symphonies is the best I've ever heard, really outstanding. Same speech for the Te Deum, which is very solemn and evocative.

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Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1664 on: May 03, 2012, 04:57:07 PM »
Very nice.....Bruckners Abtei. :)

Anton Bruckner is one of my favourite Austrian composers, along with Mahler, Mozart and J. Strauss. His music is very passionate and thrilling, extremely impressive; it expresses deep beauty and great intensity, with a rich harmonic language, a splendid, powerful orchestration, an excellent counterpoint texture and beautiful, surprising timbric variations. I have always appreciated the expressive strenght Bruckner's pieces are full of.
Bruckner's characteristic use of the false climaxes in the symphonies is absolutely brilliant, I adore those powerfully emotional crescendi which sound flowing into great finali whereas the phrase ends with a pianissimo, a pause or a fast diminuendo; absolutely beautiful and striking.

It goes without saying that my favourite Bruckner interpreter is Herbert von Karajan; his recording of the symphonies is the best I've ever heard, really outstanding. Same speech for the Te Deum, which is very solemn and evocative.

Hmm,  you just made me realize that, while I tend to prefer other approaches than Karajan's,  he might indeed be just the ticket for Bruckner. The very elements of his style that usually don't appeal to me are the ones that probably work best here.   Any particular Karajan Bruckner recording you would suggest as appreciably superior to his others?  Or is it safe to just plop one on at random?

ETA:  your post on the Listening thread provided the answer.  The box set is cheap enough I'll be ordering before too long.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 05:13:33 PM by Jeffrey Smith »
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind.
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Offline Scion7

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1665 on: May 03, 2012, 05:30:21 PM »
Karajan and Haitink.  Haitink did a fine job on Te Deum btw.
"Just back from rehearsal. No.4 gigantic, utterly original, entirely new, brazen individuality. Exudes unparalleled energy from A to Z" - letter of Hans von Bulow, October 22, 1885, to concert agent Hermann Wolff on Brahms 4th symphony

eyeresist

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1666 on: May 03, 2012, 06:55:45 PM »
Any particular Karajan Bruckner recording you would suggest as appreciably superior to his others?  Or is it safe to just plop one on at random?

No. The essential Bruckner recordings of Karajan are symphonies 4 and 7 - on EMI, not Deutche Grammophon. His complete cycle is inconsistent, but I value 1 and 3 from that set. I haven't heard his recording of the Te Deum, but have a performance on DVD (along with symphonies 8 and 9) which is excellent.

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1667 on: May 03, 2012, 08:21:27 PM »
No. The essential Bruckner recordings of Karajan are symphonies 4 and 7 - on EMI, not Deutche Grammophon. His complete cycle is inconsistent, but I value 1 and 3 from that set. I haven't heard his recording of the Te Deum, but have a performance on DVD (along with symphonies 8 and 9) which is excellent.

Well, 4 and 7 are the ones that seem to bring out the best in any conductor, and certainly the ones of which I have the most individual recordings.   I went ahead and ordered the set--it's cheap enough, especially compared to most other Bruckner cycles, and the ones you mention from the DG set are the ones I like the least (well, along with the Second), so perhaps K. will break them open for me.
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind.
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Offline calyptorhynchus

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1668 on: May 03, 2012, 08:47:11 PM »
Heard this joke recently at a musical gathering.

"What your favourite Schumann symphony?"
"Bruckner 00!"

eyeresist

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1669 on: May 03, 2012, 08:51:55 PM »
Well, 4 and 7 are the ones that seem to bring out the best in any conductor, and certainly the ones of which I have the most individual recordings.   I went ahead and ordered the set--it's cheap enough, especially compared to most other Bruckner cycles, and the ones you mention from the DG set are the ones I like the least (well, along with the Second), so perhaps K. will break them open for me.

May I ask, what recordings of 1-3 have you heard so far?

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1670 on: May 03, 2012, 09:07:23 PM »
 I have as individual recordings only the Tintner on Naxos for the first three symphonies (I could swear there's at least one more of the Third, but I can't remember what it is), and two complete sets--Jochum on EMI and Wand-Cologne WDR. 
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind.
---Rossini

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1671 on: May 03, 2012, 09:09:42 PM »
For me, it's hard to beat Wand, Chailly, Bohm, and Giulini in Bruckner. Never liked Jochum or Karajan.
"I hear the water dreaming..."


eyeresist

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1672 on: May 03, 2012, 10:16:52 PM »
I have as individual recordings only the Tintner on Naxos for the first three symphonies (I could swear there's at least one more of the Third, but I can't remember what it is), and two complete sets--Jochum on EMI and Wand-Cologne WDR.

Without having heard them, I'd say I would expect something interesting from Wand's early recordings (in my experience, he got increasingly stolid with age, though the Hanssler concert releases may be more lively).
I dislike Jochum's EMI set, and found Tintner mostly a bore - except for a lively 0 and 00.
The Furtwangler set on Music & Arts is well worth hearing, if you can tolerate the antique sound.
Skrowaczewski has been mentioned as very solid and idiomatic (plus he does the Nowak ed. of the 4th!), and is on my wishlist (though I was disappointed by his 0).

That Karajan DVD I mentioned is with the VPO, BTW, rather than the BPO with whom he did his studio recordings.

Offline Lisztianwagner

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1673 on: May 04, 2012, 01:48:24 AM »
Hmm,  you just made me realize that, while I tend to prefer other approaches than Karajan's,  he might indeed be just the ticket for Bruckner. The very elements of his style that usually don't appeal to me are the ones that probably work best here.   Any particular Karajan Bruckner recording you would suggest as appreciably superior to his others?  Or is it safe to just plop one on at random?

ETA:  your post on the Listening thread provided the answer.  The box set is cheap enough I'll be ordering before too long.

Yes, I think it's rather hard to beat Karajan's recordings, he had a very special gift to interpret german/austrian music, and Bruckner's works don't make an exception to the rule at all. Karajan's Bruckner symphonies are absolutely worth buying, that set-box is so beautiful, powerful.
Anyway, he did an excellent job with the Wiener Philharmoniker as well, with which he recorded No.7 and No.8.
"Music is the electrical soil in which the spirit lives, thinks and invents." - Ludwig van Beethoven

Offline Scion7

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1674 on: May 04, 2012, 02:19:09 AM »
Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic - Symphony No.3
Barenboim/Chicago Symphony-Symphony No.4
Haitink/Concertgebouw-Symphony 7 & Te Deum
Haitink/Concertgebouw-Symphony 8
Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic-Symphony 9  - all these on LP and like very much

I've got all the symphonies and masses on digital downloads -

Symphony No.1, No.4 & No.7 - Karajan/BPO
Symphony No."0" - Solti/CSO
Symphony No.2 - Giulini/Vienna Philharmonic
Symphony No.3 - Tinter, Royal Scottish National Orch
Symphony No.5 - Sinopoli, Staatskapelle Dresden
Symphony No.6 - Eichorn, Bruckner Orchester Linz
Symphony No.7 - Karajan, BPO
Symphony No.8 - Sinopoli, Staatskapelle Dresden
Symphony No.9 - Karajan, BPO

Te Deum - Haitink, Concertgebouw
3 Masses - Jochum, Bavarian Radio Symphony & Choir

String Quintet - Melos Quartet + Santiago

Piano works - Brunner, Schopper - nice disc from CPO



"Just back from rehearsal. No.4 gigantic, utterly original, entirely new, brazen individuality. Exudes unparalleled energy from A to Z" - letter of Hans von Bulow, October 22, 1885, to concert agent Hermann Wolff on Brahms 4th symphony

Offline Cato

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1675 on: May 04, 2012, 12:28:02 PM »
I just came across this on Amazon Deutschland: note it offers a Hans Rott String Quartet.

I am assuming it does not contain the Bruckner String Quintet, since the cover says "The Israel Quartet."  Does it therefore contain Bruckner's student quartet from the early 1860's?

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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1676 on: May 04, 2012, 01:14:39 PM »
I am assuming it does not contain the Bruckner String Quintet, since the cover says "The Israel Quartet."  Does it therefore contain Bruckner's student quartet from the early 1860's?

Yes, it's the C minor Quartet from 1862 WAB 111

http://www.abruckner.com/store/downloads/BrucknerRottSQ/


Sarge

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Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
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Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1677 on: May 04, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »
Yes, it's the C minor Quartet from 1862 WAB 111

http://www.abruckner.com/store/downloads/BrucknerRottSQ/


Sarge

The Quintet and Quartet were recorded for Naxos together with the Intermezzo for Quintet and the Rondo for Quartet movements (rejected movements for the main works, IIRC) by the Fine Arts Quartet--a recording I like immensely.  The second viola for the Quintet and Intermezzo is Gil Sharon.

In followup to last night's comment, the recording of the Third I couldn't remember but did have was Norrington's--which, despite the fact that I like his other Bruckner recordings, didn't really impress me that much. 
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind.
---Rossini

Offline Leo K.

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1678 on: May 06, 2012, 10:12:49 AM »
I can't wait to get Rattle's new Bruckner 9 with the finale. Below are what I feel are commendable performances with an earlier edition of the finale by Nicola Samale, Giuseppe Mazzuca, John A. Phillips, and Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs.

Both of the following recordings have their rough spots, but are worth it to hear the finale within the context of the other movements, in a very convincing manner. I also like Harnoncourt's lecture with about 18 minutes of the Finale music, in unedited form.




Kurt Eichhorn, Bruckner Orchester Linz
Camerata 30CM-275-6 (2 CDs). TT: 92:47. Finale: 30:11



Friedemann Layer, Musikalische Akademie des Nationaltheater-Orchesters Mannheim e.V.
Deutschlandradio Kultur (2 CDs). TT: 83:24. Finale: 25:29 (available from www.abruckner.com)

I read Richard Lehnert's review of Simon Rattle's concert Carnegie Hall on 2/24/12:

Quote
I waited a long time for this performance: the first on US soil of Bruckner's Symphony 9 with any edition of the completion of the Finale by Nicola Samale, John A. Phillips, Benjamin-Gunnar Cohrs, and Giuseppe Mazzuca (SPCM), and the first anywhere of a four-movement 9th by a first-rank conductor and orchestra, in this case Sir Simon Rattle and the Berlin Philharmonic. I sat in seat K-16, on the right side of the Parquet (orchestra or floor section) of Carnegie Hall, and so was even more grateful that Rattle had split the Berlin's first and second violin sections into antiphonal choirs, left and right. It beautifully clarified Bruckner's even-handed writing for the two sections. I don't think I have ever heard an orchestra of such finesse wedded to such power. The sheer volume of sound in the hall was almost overwhelming.
Rattle clearly deeply feels the power of this work, and was able to convey that to us through the orchestra—I don't think I've ever seen so clear an example of a conductor holding or reserving, for a hundred or so musicians, a common space into or through which could be collected or focused what must have been their many different feelings and thoughts about this music. The ongoing, everyday miracle of the modern symphony orchestra—so many playing not only coherently, but with great delicacy, as one—was once again made manifest.

That said, I found the performance itself a strangely mixed bag. In the first and third movements, Rattle's considerable range of dynamics was movingly effective, and I think his Scherzo may be the best I've heard—overpowering and hellish, and never lacking in precision. If Scherzo this was, it was one of absolute dead seriousness. Throughout the symphony, in fact, the Berliners' precision and control and power seemed almost superhuman. I agree with Bruckner Journal editor Ken Ward, however; as he pointed out in his excellent review on Bachtrack, the orchestra's relentless sostenuto playing does somewhat mask the inner voices and some of the subtler counterpoint. Perhaps it's a holdover from or an institutional memory of the Karajan decades . . .

It was the performance of the Finale itself that I found least satisfying. It seemed episodic and tentative, with awkward transitions, adding up to something less than the sum of its parts. This was not a weakness of the uncompleted Finale itself, or of the movement as completed by SPCM—I find the recordings of various editions of the SPCM completion conducted by Friedemann Layer, Kurt Eichhorn, Johannes Wildner, Daniel Harding, and Marcus Bosch to hang together more seamlessly and committedly, and to make more internal sense, than did either of the Rattle/Berlin performances I heard (at Carnegie on February 24, and the live webcast from the Berlin Philharmonie of February 9, the latter archived here and viewable for €9.90). But, as Rattle himself said in his video introduction to the live webcast on the BPO's website, there is no performance tradition for the Finale—the movement was entirely new to the orchestra, which had only a few rehearsals of it before the concert. It will be interesting to hear what EMI's engineers and editors assemble for the CD edition, to be released May 22 (Wagner's birthday), from the three Berlin performances and a patch session.

But while I expected more from such a fine conductor and orchestra, I was happy to hear them performing this music at all. And this newest, 2011 edition of the SPCM Finale, with newly condensed coda, really does work beautifully. The realization of the completers that Bruckner's remark about concluding the symphony with a quotation of the "Alleluia" from "the second movement" is likely to have indicated not the eventual second movement, the Scherzo (as long assumed, though that never quite made sense), but the rising figure on trumpets beginning in bar 5 of the Adagio (which may well still have been the second movement when Bruckner made the remark), must have been one of those forehead-slapping moments: Of course! I think it works wonderfully.

A special treat for me was a long lunch with John A. Phillips, one of the four members of the SPCM team. I felt fortunate to be able to hear his stories of the various stages of the completion, and of the discovery of just how much of the Finale Bruckner had completed, and how many of those pages had survived, and how many sketches applied to the missing coda, from the man who, as much as anyone, has discovered those many connections.

—Richard Lehnert


eyeresist

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #1679 on: May 06, 2012, 06:23:44 PM »
Thanks for quoting that great review, Leo. I only hope they somehow rescue the performance in the edit....


The Quintet and Quartet were recorded for Naxos together with the Intermezzo for Quintet and the Rondo for Quartet movements (rejected movements for the main works, IIRC) by the Fine Arts Quartet--a recording I like immensely.  The second viola for the Quintet and Intermezzo is Gil Sharon.

That Naxos disc really is a great collection. My previous encounter with the Quintet was a recording by the Vienna Philharmonic Quintet, an outfit whose recordings I have sadly learned to avoid.

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