Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 355276 times)

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Offline Cato

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3200 on: November 06, 2018, 07:49:15 AM »
That's called, if you are generous, a teaser.  ;D (Not quite clickbait, because there actually IS something waiting at the other side that makes sense of this.)

So...if you click on it, is maybe   >:D   waitin'  ?    ;)
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Offline JBS

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3201 on: November 06, 2018, 08:14:52 AM »
So...if you click on it, is maybe   >:D   waitin'  ?    ;)

If you click it, you meet the CI paywall.  So it remains a teaser for me.


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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3202 on: November 06, 2018, 11:58:10 PM »
If you click it, you meet the CI paywall.  So it remains a teaser for me.

Hmmm... there's that, of course. The bit of trying to carve out a living from what we do. Well, I'll give it away for free, this once, but don't tell anyone else: The music is terrible!

 ;D

Offline JBS

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3203 on: November 07, 2018, 01:18:44 PM »
Hmmm... there's that, of course. The bit of trying to carve out a living from what we do. Well, I'll give it away for free, this once, but don't tell anyone else: The music is terrible!

 ;D

That would explain why that recording has so many world premieres.

I am a bit surprised. An organist is not a pianist but one would expect an organist to have a basic feel for how the notes sound under the fingers of a good keyboardist.


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Offline André

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3204 on: November 08, 2018, 01:52:00 PM »


Overture in g minor and symphony no 1 (Wienerfassung). Symphony no 3 (1890, ed. By Raettig). No 1 ia a studio recording from 1955, no 3 emanates from a 1953 concert in the Konzerthaus, Vienna.

When I started collecting records around 1972 F. Charles Adler was known for his pioneering Mahler recordings of symphonies 3 and 6. I had no idea he was also a noted brucknerian, although his lifetime association with the Wiener Symphoniker should have tipped me in that direction. At the time these were old recordings  ::) and I much preferred to listen to world class orchestras in good stereo (first discs were Mehta’s WP 9th and Barenboim’s Chicago 4th).

A contemporaneous cycle of the symphonies with the same orchestra under Volkmar Andreae signally failed to satisfy me. I found it uniformly harsh and aggressive, turning Bruckner’s symphonies into musical edifices under siege. Not necessarily a question of tempo (generally fast) so much as a seeming lack of patience and affection for the brucknerian idiom.

Under Adler things improve significantly. Although the sound is certainly unglamorous, it nevertheless encompasses big dynamic levels without problem. The Wiener Symphoniker at the time was THE Bruckner orchestra. Not a question of quality of playing (the Philharmoniker play and sound better), but of familiarity with the brucknerian syntax. Adler definitely has the measure of both the ground plan and the fine details of the scores.

The 3rd was recorded both in concert and in the studio. The concert recording is a volcanic, super intense interpretation. The first movement is much like that of the Eroica under Toscanini and it suits the work to a T. I must have a couple of recordings of the rare Overture in g minor, but this is the first time I listen to it with any kind of interest. An excellent historic set.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3205 on: November 11, 2018, 02:31:55 PM »


Overture in g minor and symphony no 1 (Wienerfassung). Symphony no 3 (1890, ed. By Raettig). No 1 ia a studio recording from 1955, no 3 emanates from a 1953 concert in the Konzerthaus, Vienna.


Any other performances in this set, other than those you mention? Near complete even?

That would explain why that recording has so many world premieres.

I am a bit surprised. An organist is not a pianist but one would expect an organist to have a basic feel for how the notes sound under the fingers of a good keyboardist.

Yes, NOT AT ALL. That's what I had hoped for, too...

Offline André

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3206 on: November 11, 2018, 04:46:45 PM »
Contents of the Adler box:



I have listened to the studio 3rd and the 6th. The 3rd in concert is from another disc. It’s a searing performance and I’m happy to have this other slant on the conductor's art. Like a low angle shot (looking up) for additional drama. Sometime this month I’ll listen to the 9th. I notice that contrary to the view that prevailed pre-1965, timings indicate a quite spacious performance. Yummy!

Adler has a way of placing rhetorical emphasis on the concluding bars of the finales that I find very satisfying.

Offline ChamberNut

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3207 on: November 29, 2018, 10:42:48 AM »


Try the Seventh with Herreweghe.


I tried it and I surprisingly didn't just liked it, I LOVE it!  Enjoy it equally to the Munich/Celibidache and Dresden/Jochum 7th.  Three vastly different approaches, and all of them seem to work for me.  Could it simply be that Bruckner wrote not too shabby of a ditty with the 7th?  :-\ :)
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Offline JBS

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3208 on: November 29, 2018, 10:58:49 AM »
I tried it and I surprisingly didn't just liked it, I LOVE it!  Enjoy it equally to the Munich/Celibidache and Dresden/Jochum 7th.  Three vastly different approaches, and all of them seem to work for me.  Could it simply be that Bruckner wrote not too shabby of a ditty with the 7th?  :-\ :)
:) :) :)
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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3209 on: November 29, 2018, 12:31:38 PM »
I tried it and I surprisingly didn't just liked it, I LOVE it!  Enjoy it equally to the Munich/Celibidache and Dresden/Jochum 7th.  Three vastly different approaches, and all of them seem to work for me.  Could it simply be that Bruckner wrote not too shabby of a ditty with the 7th?  :-\ :)

The Nut is back! Excellent! Hope you stick around.

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Offline André

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3210 on: November 30, 2018, 05:59:22 PM »

After starting almost 2 years ago, I completed listening to this set today with no 7   :)



Only no 4 left me unsatisfied. Better than his boring Hallé version (on IMP) but still sub par. His 9th though is even better than the earlier Minnesota account (on Reference) - inded, I think it’s one of the best modern versions. This set is very complete, including as it does the study symphony in f minor and no 0. No finale to # 9 though. Particularly fine IMO are all the early symphonies, up to no 3. Nos 6-9 are all uniformly excellent. Throughout, the Saarbrücken orchestra delivers the goods in spades, and the recorded sound is spacious and well defined. This as satisfying as Rögner & Friends on Brilliant Classics, and better value than most big name sets out there.

Offline Daverz

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3211 on: November 30, 2018, 06:51:37 PM »
After starting almost 2 years ago, I completed listening to this set today with no 7   :)



Only no 4 left me unsatisfied. Better than his boring Hallé version (on IMP) but still sub par. His 9th though is even better than the earlier Minnesota account (on Reference) - inded, I think it’s one of the best modern versions. This set is very complete, including as it does the study symphony in f minor and no 0. No finale to # 9 though. Particularly fine IMO are all the early symphonies, up to no 3. Nos 6-9 are all uniformly excellent. Throughout, the Saarbrücken orchestra delivers the goods in spades, and the recorded sound is spacious and well defined. This as satisfying as Rögner & Friends on Brilliant Classics, and better value than most big name sets out there.

He also did 0, 5 and 7 thru 9 in Japan with the Yomiuri Nippon for Denon.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 04:29:35 PM by Daverz »

Offline André

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3212 on: December 01, 2018, 06:55:02 PM »


Listened to today: symphony no 3 in the Carragan edition of the 1874 version. The notes to the booklet do not explain exactly what is different from the original 1873 version, other than mentioning that it is "unabridged and documents Bruckner's first comprehensive revisions. Interestingly, it is in many places more opulently orchestrated than the original version of 1873."

Anyone has info on what those "comprehensive revisions" may be ?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 05:45:31 PM by André »

Offline Cato

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3213 on: December 02, 2018, 04:00:11 PM »


Listened to today: symphony no 3 in the Carragan edition of the 1874 version. The notes to the booklet do not explain exactly what is different from the original 1873 version, other than mentioning that it is "unabridged and documents Brucknerks first comprehensive revisions. Interestingly, it is in many places more opulently orchestrated than the original version of 1873."

Anyone have info on what those "comprehensive revisions" may be ?


Apparently the article to read is one from c. 30 years ago by a certain Thomas Roeder: I found this reference in a few articles about everything except the 1874 revision!

Quote


 Thomas RoederAuf dem Weg zur Bruckner Symphonie: Untersuchungen zu den ersten beiden Fassungen von Anton Bruckners Dritter Symphonie   (Stuttgart, 1987)


"On the Path to the Bruckner Symphony: Investigations on the first two versions of Anton Bruckner's Third Symphony"

I found a summarized reference to a section of that article which might provide a clue toward answering your question:

Quote

In the Third Symphony, as the research of Thomas Röder first revealed, Bruckner added some stretto-like imitation, mostly in the brass, in intensifying and tension-building passages—or what are often called Steigerungen in German—in which he uses imitation and stretto as a means of intensification.  Röder suggests that this must have happened around January 1875, when Bruckner wrote “I have significantly improved the Wagner Symphony (in D minor)."    This would have been at just the time he began drafting the Fifth.



The 1874 revisions might have been the result of private rehearsals of the symphony, which allowed Bruckner to judge his orchestration.

Manfred Wagner, the great Bruckner scholar, was of the opinion that, in general, the earliest versions of the symphonies were to be preferred.
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Offline André

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3214 on: December 06, 2018, 05:44:44 PM »


This box set comprises two different performances of the 4th symphony. The first dates from 2007 and is of the final (1878/1880) revision, in the Nowak edition - no cymbal crash in the finale though. The second performance dates from 2013 and is of the same 1878/1880 version, but with the 1878 so-called Volkfest finale in lieu of the familiar last movement - this time in an edition by "Nowak/Carragan".

Let’s dispatch the Volkfest movement first: it’s a strange, strange musical contraption. The notes fail to explain what exactly Bruckner had in mind composing it, but describe it as "briefer and catchier". It’s also insanely incoherent. I was reminded of these webs spun by Spiders under the influence:



On the basis of this recording of the piece, I can only conclude that Anton experimented with bennies around 1878. Since he returned to the original finale in 1880, we can be grateful that he shook the habit.

Anyhow, it helps that the two performances are different enough to make a clear first choice possible. The "normal" version from 2007 is an excellent one, spaciously conceived but rythmically alive, beautifully played and resplendently recorded. I normally don’t like that set’s churchy acoustics, but here they are perfectly judged, with the long reverb time just this side of acceptable. The coda to the finale is stunning. All told, a success and the best performance of the bunch 00-4 (I’m listening to the symphonies chronologically).

The Volkfest performance is slower in I, faster in II, identical in III. Rythms seem to chug instead of flow, damaging the music’s continuity. The symphony seems to suffer from arthritic joints. Also, the orchestra sounds less confident. It’s a festival orchestra, its members brought together for the Ebracher Musiksommer every year. The Volkfest version was taped in January, therefore not in the Festival season. IOW it was a one-off gathering for recording purposes only. I think that may account for the fact that the orchestral tissue does not sound as seamless as usual.

Offline ChamberNut

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3215 on: December 07, 2018, 10:05:48 AM »

On the basis of this recording of the piece, I can only conclude that Anton experimented with bennies around 1878. Since he returned to the original finale in 1880, we can be grateful that he shook the habit.


 :D  I have a hard time imagining this, but it is funny nevertheless.  Are you sure it is described as "Volkfest" movement?  Or "Tokefest"?  8) :P
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Offline André

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3216 on: December 07, 2018, 10:10:51 AM »
:D  I have a hard time imagining this, but it is funny nevertheless.  Are you sure it is described as "Volkfest" movement?  Or "Tokefest"?  8) :P

Maybe he hung around with the bad volks ?

Offline Cato

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey: Bruckner's Second in the Ukraine
« Reply #3217 on: December 14, 2018, 03:40:58 PM »
I cam across this today completely by chance: too late to hop a plane for Lviv (a.k.a. Lwow and Lemberg):

The Lviv Philharmonic plays Bruckner's Second Symphony: the title of the concert is interesting.

Interview in English:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/E1Er1TwZefM" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/E1Er1TwZefM</a>

https://philharmonia.lviv.ua/en/event/romantic-mysteria-14-12-2018-19-00/
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3218 on: December 15, 2018, 12:08:05 AM »
Am enjoying this.

Have only heard No.9 so far but thought it terrific. One review described these recordings as like Furtwangler in more modern sound:

« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 12:09:53 AM by vandermolen »
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Offline Cato

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #3219 on: December 15, 2018, 03:15:04 AM »
Am enjoying this.

Have only heard No.9 so far but thought it terrific. One review described these recordings as like Furtwangler in more modern sound:



Carl Schuricht's Bruckner Ninth was the first performance of the work that I had ever heard in the early 1960's, and it remains near the top.  I remember a reviewer calling it something like straight, no-nonsense Bruckner.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)