Author Topic: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020  (Read 6980 times)

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Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2019, 05:37:56 PM »
You don't know as much as you think and you are interpreting this wrong. Please watch this to learn.

As always, you are mistaking partisan advocacy for a presentation of facts.
Bernie is an old socialist who got wealthy as a politician doing the bidding of corporations. There are several much younger politicians who are just as much socialists as he is, who are not as beholden to the corporations you despise, and who are actual members of the Democratic Party, unlike Bernie (who joins the Party only when he wants to run for POTUS). He is not the only option to the anointed Establishment candidate, unlike 2016.  He won't even win the old white guy category. That will go to Biden.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2019, 05:38:34 PM »
You correctly point out that American health care is more expensive.  That's not because of the insurance companies or the drug companies. They are responding to Medicare, the single payer insurance for people over 65. For decades the US government paid out money on behalf of seniors and they did it so freely prices naturally rose rapidly.  Even after the government started trying to control that rise, they went on rising.
Government is already the biggest spender in health care (figure I have seen is $700 Billion US for 2017), just for seniors. To expand that to cover everyone would require either diverting almost all tax revenue to that single program, or forcing drastic price cuts on everyone. Which in turn will mean drastic cuts to the care they receive.

That's why Medicare for all is not a realistic option.

Medicare for all is a completely new thing. You can't extrapolate medicare costs. These things have been calculated, $32 trillion over 10 years = $3.2 trillion per year. As I said, even Koch brothers funded study made medicare for all cheaper than current system, other (better) studies even more.

All other developped countries do single payer. The reason the US doesn't also do is oligarchy. That's it.
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Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2019, 05:41:34 PM »
Medicare for all is a completely new thing. You can't extrapolate medicare costs. These things have been calculated, $32 trillion over 10 years = $3.2 trillion per year. As I said, even Koch brothers funded study made medicare for all cheaper than current system, other (better) studies even more.

All other developped countries do single payer. The reason the US doesn't also do is oligarchy. That's it.

It would be cheaper. It would be cheaper because it would deliver lower quality of care.
What the US public wants is cheaper health care but at a level of quality that is at least as good as now.
In geometry that problem is known as squaring the circle.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2019, 05:52:26 PM »
As always, you are mistaking partisan advocacy for a presentation of facts.
Bernie is an old socialist who got wealthy as a politician doing the bidding of corporations. There are several much younger politicians who are just as much socialists as he is, who are not as beholden to the corporations you despise, and who are actual members of the Democratic Party, unlike Bernie (who joins the Party only when he wants to run for POTUS). He is not the only option to the anointed Establishment candidate, unlike 2016.  He won't even win the old white guy category. That will go to Biden.

What the fuck are you talking about? Bernie got wealthy writing a book that sold well. We know this, because he showed his tax returns, something Trump hasn't done. Doing the bidding of corporations? What the FUCK? He is the last dude to do that. Was forcing Amazon and Disney to pay $15 to their workers doing the bidding of corporations? Also, Bernie is NOT a socialist. He is a social democrat who calls himself democratic socialist (yes, he fucked up with that terminology, unfortunately). Compared to other senators, Bernie's wealth is very modest. Bernie is not the only option, but he is the best option.

I have seen a lot of people on other forum like you. I have wrote these same fucking lectures 300 times all over the internet. Why do I even bother? If you american enjoy the oligarchy so much then KEEP IT. Just TRY to elect presidents who are not idiots.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2019, 05:59:12 PM »
It would be cheaper. It would be cheaper because it would deliver lower quality of care.
What the US public wants is cheaper health care but at a level of quality that is at least as good as now.
In geometry that problem is known as squaring the circle.

Except the care in single payer countries is not of lower quality. It depends on what things you emphasize, but the US healthcare system provides average care according to studies. Medicare for all would not affect the quality of care. It would cover everyone and drop the costs.

Squaring the circle has nothing to do with this. Removing the effects of oligarchy is what this is about.
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Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2019, 07:09:24 PM »
What the fuck are you talking about? Bernie got wealthy writing a book that sold well. We know this, because he showed his tax returns, something Trump hasn't done. Doing the bidding of corporations? What the FUCK? He is the last dude to do that. Was forcing Amazon and Disney to pay $15 to their workers doing the bidding of corporations? Also, Bernie is NOT a socialist. He is a social democrat who calls himself democratic socialist (yes, he fucked up with that terminology, unfortunately). Compared to other senators, Bernie's wealth is very modest. Bernie is not the only option, but he is the best option.

I have seen a lot of people on other forum like you. I have wrote these same fucking lectures 300 times all over the internet. Why do I even bother? If you american enjoy the oligarchy so much then KEEP IT. Just TRY to elect presidents who are not idiots.

Bernie was wealthy long before he wrote that book. Check into his career as mayor/local politician, and you will understand better.


Offline amw

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #146 on: July 16, 2019, 07:27:27 PM »
Except the care in single payer countries is not of lower quality. It depends on what things you emphasize, but the US healthcare system provides average care according to studies. Medicare for all would not affect the quality of care. It would cover everyone and drop the costs.

Squaring the circle has nothing to do with this. Removing the effects of oligarchy is what this is about.
American health care is lower quality than that of many other countries that use a single payer system (eg Canada, Cuba, France, Germany, etc) or some kind of public-private partnership where point of service healthcare costs are subsidised (eg Switzerland, etc). Apart from a few specialist research hospitals/clinics which are competitive on a world class level, the rest of the US's healthcare system is generally considered subpar. We can see this from looking at where the super rich travel for medical tourism—it's largely places like France, Switzerland, Israel, Belgium etc.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #147 on: July 16, 2019, 07:39:37 PM »
Bernie was wealthy long before he wrote that book. Check into his career as mayor/local politician, and you will understand better.

Now three houses is a problem? Jesus.
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Offline schnittkease

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #148 on: July 16, 2019, 08:21:18 PM »
And Trump is a billionaire. Do you really think the country cares about a president's wealth? Sanders has consistently been on the right side of issues, even when the legislature does not benefit him.

Offline schnittkease

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2019, 08:24:33 PM »
B O O M

Try that on for size.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2019, 08:58:28 PM »
Sanders has consistently been on the right side of issues, even when the legislature does not benefit him.

That's what I have heard.
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Offline schnittkease

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2019, 09:10:29 PM »

Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #152 on: July 17, 2019, 12:21:16 PM »
B O O M

Try that on for size.

Sanders 1974 complained about the problem, while Sanders 2020 proposed (again) a massive governmental regulation that doesn't actually work.
Biden 1975 identified the solution: fix the schools.

And Trump is a billionaire. Do you really think the country cares about a president's wealth? Sanders has consistently been on the right side of issues, even when the legislature does not benefit him.

I referred to Sanders' wealth as an indication that he is in fact just another politician  making his money from the corrupt practices you complain about. (And how many working class people you know own three houses?)

Sanders has been consistently on the right side only if you think that the right side involves increased government subsidies (=government interference via deciding who gets the subsidies), regulation and price fixing. IOW, consistently on left side.

Offline schnittkease

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2019, 12:03:31 AM »
Sanders 1974 complained about the problem, while Sanders 2020 proposed (again) a massive governmental regulation that doesn't actually work.
Biden 1975 identified the solution: fix the schools.

I referred to Sanders' wealth as an indication that he is in fact just another politician  making his money from the corrupt practices you complain about. (And how many working class people you know own three houses?)

Sanders has been consistently on the right side only if you think that the right side involves increased government subsidies (=government interference via deciding who gets the subsidies), regulation and price fixing. IOW, consistently on left side.

Sanders' housing plan is very similar to Warren's, and it does work.

Where does Biden 'identify the solution'? I think you are putting words in his mouth:

"The new integration plans being offered are really just quota-systems to assure a certain number of blacks, Chicanos, or whatever in each school,” Biden apparently told a TV reporter in 1975.

"That, to me, is the most racist concept you can come up with," Biden added. “What it says is, in order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son. That’s racist! Who the hell do we think we are, that the only way a black man or woman can learn is if they rub shoulders with my white child?"

No, Sanders is not making any money off of corrupt practices. If you recall his tax returns from the 2016 campaign, he earned $205,271 in 2014 (most of that being from the Senate salary) while Clinton earned $28 million in the same year. Yes, he wrote a few books in the meantime and become wealthier, but I stress that none of the money profited off of corruption. Sanders is not in the "working class" (NO politician is) but that's who he fights for.

I guess you're one of those people that thinks opposing the Iraq War is a "leftist solution."
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 12:05:15 AM by schnittkease »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2019, 02:30:46 AM »
If you have an hour:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYSlyyOXA4

Watching this felt 30 minutes. Nothing new to me really, but Bernie shines when he can use time to explain things (to ignorant people). He is not as good in answering quick silly 30 seconds "YES" or "NO" questions.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2019, 02:54:53 AM »
Trump's presidency has been hard for me, because it made me follow American politics closely. Lerning about the US politics and society has been devastating. I knew that a portion of Americans are ignorant, uneducated and dumb, to the level od idiocracy we find ourselves is mind-blowing. The way the corporate media has brainwashed people is mindblowing. The way oligarchy has decimated the middle class is mindblowing. We have flat-earthers, young earth believers, anti-vaxxers, evolution deniers, climate change deniers, trickle-down effect-believers, LGBT haters, xenophobes, racists and so on. How did this happen? Where is enlightment? Did it expire after 600 years? Where is reason and intelligence? When I was young (and naive) I thought mankind goes forward, not backwards. I don't know what mankind is doing. What is the vision? This is lunacy. We fight each other holding idiotic beliefs and destroy the planet in the process.

I can deal with the fact that there's always dumb, uneducated and ignorant people, but there are just so many of them and Koch brothers spend their money to keep these people ignorant. That is so utterly immoral I have no words. That is literally work of Satan. Koch brothers could do so much good with their money if they were normal human beings with empathy.

Even in a board dedicated to CLASSICAL MUSIC I am not safe from dumb people and I have to suffer reading posts from people like JBS who thinks Bernie Sanders is corrupt. Of all American senators Bernie is the corrupt one? Jesus Christ! This is just inbearable!  ???
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 03:02:47 AM by 71 dB »
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Offline drogulus

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2019, 03:05:36 AM »


Sanders has been consistently on the right side only if you think that the right side involves increased government subsidies (=government interference via deciding who gets the subsidies), regulation and price fixing. IOW, consistently on left side.

      That's not the only way to be on the right side but it may be the default way to use subsidies and regulations. Governments exist to come up with ways, calling it interference is a little bit mischievous IMV, as if the governments concerns were some strictly defined set of functions that include no means of promoting the general welfare.

      What better way exists to get right side results other than "interfering"? What alternative is involved? What would real "repeal and replace" solutions look like for government functions? We will never know.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2019, 03:11:54 AM »
I think I am becoming the Mike Malloy of Finland... ...I feel I am equally pissed off about what's going on.  >:(
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Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2019, 05:52:59 AM »

Sanders' housing plan is very similar to Warren's, and it does work.

Where does Biden 'identify the solution'? I think you are putting words in his mouth:

"The new integration plans being offered are really just quota-systems to assure a certain number of blacks, Chicanos, or whatever in each school,” Biden apparently told a TV reporter in 1975.

"That, to me, is the most racist concept you can come up with," Biden added. “What it says is, in order for your child with curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin to be able to learn anything, he needs to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed son. That’s racist! Who the hell do we think we are, that the only way a black man or woman can learn is if they rub shoulders with my white child?"

No, Sanders is not making any money off of corrupt practices. If you recall his tax returns from the 2016 campaign, he earned $205,271 in 2014 (most of that being from the Senate salary) while Clinton earned $28 million in the same year. Yes, he wrote a few books in the meantime and become wealthier, but I stress that none of the money profited off of corruption. Sanders is not in the "working class" (NO politician is) but that's who he fights for.

I guess you're one of those people that thinks opposing the Iraq War is a "leftist solution."

I was a student in the era of forced busing, although I wasn't one of the kids who was bused. 
If your goal is fixing the mess that is inner city schools...which is what Biden was actually talking about...busing did not work. In fact it probably made the problem worse.

For your information, the Iraq War is a classic Leftist program: big government planning a giant program using ideas that  have no basis in reality, spending loads of money to do so, and then blaming the failures on bad implementation instead of acknowledging it was a bad idea from start to finish. The fact that the GOP backs it merely demonstrates how the GOP likes big government.

Fair housing is another such program: government deciding who can live where without reference to anything in reality.

Offline JBS

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Re: And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2019, 06:04:35 AM »
Trump's presidency has been hard for me, because it made me follow American politics closely. Lerning about the US politics and society has been devastating. I knew that a portion of Americans are ignorant, uneducated and dumb, to the level od idiocracy we find ourselves is mind-blowing. The way the corporate media has brainwashed people is mindblowing. The way oligarchy has decimated the middle class is mindblowing. We have flat-earthers, young earth believers, anti-vaxxers, evolution deniers, climate change deniers, trickle-down effect-believers, LGBT haters, xenophobes, racists and so on. How did this happen? Where is enlightment? Did it expire after 600 years? Where is reason and intelligence? When I was young (and naive) I thought mankind goes forward, not backwards. I don't know what mankind is doing. What is the vision? This is lunacy. We fight each other holding idiotic beliefs and destroy the planet in the process.

I can deal with the fact that there's always dumb, uneducated and ignorant people, but there are just so many of them and Koch brothers spend their money to keep these people ignorant. That is so utterly immoral I have no words. That is literally work of Satan. Koch brothers could do so much good with their money if they were normal human beings with empathy.

Even in a board dedicated to CLASSICAL MUSIC I am not safe from dumb people and I have to suffer reading posts from people like JBS who thinks Bernie Sanders is corrupt. Of all American senators Bernie is the corrupt one? Jesus Christ! This is just inbearable!  ???

Familiarize yourself with Bernie's preSenate career, and you will understand better.

But step back a moment.
You want Trump to be defeated in 2020. So do I.
To do that, you need a candidate whom people will vote for.
They won't vote for a progressive candidate. Progressive ideas are not popular, especially when mixed in with the social justice issues that so pre-occupies the Left today. Anyone who says otherwise is spouting bosh.
Whether you like them or not, the policies you label as corporatist [they are not in fact, for the most part] are the sort of policies that appeal to American voters. They will vote for a candidate who will let them get the public option health care if they want. [Biden!]  They will not vote for a candidate who wants them to only have the public option [anyone backing Medicare for all.]
And so on.
Think of it this way: any candidate who appeals to you is too far left, and will lose to Trump.