Author Topic: Wuorinen's Whirlygig  (Read 26070 times)

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snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #300 on: June 12, 2018, 08:41:20 AM »
The artists you mention totally stick to the tropes I mentioned: they do a great deal of rapping about rapping. And there is either braggadocio or, its twin, rapping about being motivated and focused to eventually become someone great. You think the Roots don’t do this, seriously? To give one of innumerable examples, look at "The Fire", where Black Thought raps: "I never show signs of fatigue or turn tired / Cause I'm the definition of tragedy turned triumph / It's David and Goliath, I made it to the eye of the storm" Etc. etc. I just don’t want to constantly hear people talk about how great they are. Humility is a virtue.

Plus, I still consider Afrocentrism to be a representation of an American sociopolitical issue (namely black empowerment through reconnecting with a heritage they felt violently disconnected from).

What I would really like is hip-hop with lyrics as totally abstract or hermetic (but evocative and heartfelt) as e.g. Paul Celan, Scott Walker’s work on Climate of Hunter, or certain Bowie songs. Is it out there?

Thankfully, it is the Wuorinen Thread that is being sullied with the mention of Lamar. Did this guy reallywin the Pulitzer? Well, I guess in an age where BarryO can get it fo' nuthin', then it is a fait acc... I was intrigued by this Lamar, and this song 'Humble', and I thought it was going to be some kind of meditation... lol,...

but, noooooooooooo...

LOL, issa da b**** das needs 2B humble, yo,...

yea, ok, ... as CRC says, tropi tropi tropi,... victim ... Lamar, what in all seriousness have YOU overcome?


CHAD- really,... this Lamar guy?


Even all the Blaxploitation Stars of the 70s agree that the 'Black Thing' was done by... 1973... by 1975 it over for us all anyway (Eagles First World Tour... 'The Omen' for real!!!!!)...


seriously...look at the 'Tall Israekli' who basically rules the hiphop world... NOTHING in BlackMusic&Entertainment gets passed the "movers and shakers of the entertainment industry"...


This is what Charley gets for Brokeback!! :laugh:


He shoulda done 'Ferguson'.... sorry Charley




SERIOUSLY PEOPLE, we're living in a POSTPost-Modern world in its 3rd or 7th wave,... even  GoodStuff suxx now... no reeeally good stuff is allowed, we have entered the Age of Global Social Policing.

WHY IS ANY OF THIS QUESTIONED, or taken seriously, or anything? ALL MEDIA is now compromised....

PUBLISHERS WILL START EDITING CHOPIN to make it eeeasier for the ModernStupid  to feel like they also get a participation trophy in history's long history of history.



oh dear, now what have I done? :-[


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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #301 on: June 12, 2018, 08:49:02 AM »
My bad, I forgot that example of high poetry.  :D

"I know when to go out, I know when to stay in, get things done."

Advice to live by.  8)

That part of Bowie’s career is widely seen as a lyrical nadir precisely because he had done better things elsewhere at other times. But I believe his lyrics on songs like "Heat" or "The Motel" or "Sons of the Silent Age" are strong, and they are the sort of thing I would like to find in hip-hop because I am not adverse to hip-hop as a musical form, only its lyrical tropes.

And San Antone’s accusation that I am looking for hip-hop without blacks is out of order. If I say I am looking for hip-hop without those tropes, then San Antone seems to be suggesting that African-American artists could only provide those tropes, and that strikes me as appallingly racist. There is no reason that African-Americans, too, could not turn their hand to more abstract or hermetic lyrics.

Musically, I like Let’s Dance, part of that may be mere sentiment.

But this phrase got razzed pretty seriously by The Supreme Razzer, FZ:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oPsZZ2ZyIv8" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oPsZZ2ZyIv8</a>
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Offline San Antone

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #302 on: June 12, 2018, 08:51:11 AM »
And San Antone’s accusation that I am looking for hip-hop without blacks is out of order. If I say I am looking for hip-hop without those tropes, then San Antone seems to be suggesting that African-American artists could only provide those tropes, and that strikes me as appallingly racist. There is no reason that African-Americans, too, could not turn their hand to more abstract or hermetic lyrics.

And you ignored 99% my post where I described precisely how all these Black groups do not engage in the what you call "tropes", but address and express issues relevant to the Black community, and not in a cookie-cutter manner.  The stylistic aspects you wish for, "lyrics as totally abstract or hermetic," are not as important to them as to the three White artists you named.

 ;)

« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:04:40 AM by San Antone »

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #303 on: June 12, 2018, 09:07:31 AM »
Separately, and (well) on topic . . .

This morning, the concierge downstairs told me that he listened to this, and likes it a lot.  There should be more guitar literature like this, he opined.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y_6LvnlZlTM" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Y_6LvnlZlTM</a>
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #304 on: June 12, 2018, 09:14:45 AM »
And you ignored 99% my post where I described precisely how all these Black groups do not engage in the what you call "tropes" in a cookie-cutter manner.

It does not matter if they don’t engage those themes in a cookie-cutter manner. You think I should be satisfied even if those artists approach those tropes in a fresh or distinct manner, but what I would really like to find is hip-hop that does not deal with those themes at all.

And it is in no way racist or anti-Black to search for music that avoids those themes. Just like it isn’t some kind of hatred against white demographics when I prefer to avoid, in the same fashion, rock or country music songs that make references to dancing or man-woman relationships that I feel I have heard enough already.

Or just like how it isn’t anti-German when I really don’t like the sung texts of most 19th-century lieder because of the concerns of Romantic-era poetry. I am just looking for something different. For me, what saved classical music with voice is the fact that in the 20th century, there were composers taking up modernist poets with different concerns.

Similarly, I feel like I could really get into hip-hop if the rapped text on top of its production were different than what I have been finding. (Of course, the production would have to be strong, too.) But it is very discouraging to search when I am attacked straightaway as racist as San Antone did.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:18:38 AM by CRCulver »

Offline San Antone

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #305 on: June 12, 2018, 09:22:31 AM »
It does not matter if they don’t engage those themes in a cookie-cutter manner. You think I should be satisfied even if those artists approach those tropes in a fresh or distinct manner, but what I would really like to find is hip-hop that does not deal with those themes at all. Ever.

And it is in no way racist or anti-Black to search for music that avoids those themes. Just like it isn’t some kind of hatred against white demographics when I prefer to avoid, in the same fashion, rock or country music songs that make references to dancing or man-woman relationships that I feel I have heard enough already.

Or just like how it isn’t anti-German when I really don’t like the sung texts of most 19th-century lieder because of the concerns of Romantic-era poetry. I am just looking for something different. For me, what saved classical music with voice is the fact that in the 20th century, there were composers taking up modernist poets with different concerns.

Similarly, I feel like I could really get into hip-hop if the rapped text on top of its production were different than what I have been finding. (Of course, the production would have to be strong, too.) But it is very discouraging to search when I am attacked straightaway as racist as San Antone did.

I didn't call you a racist, I just pointed out that what you are looking for probably doesn't exist in hip-hop by any Black artist I've heard.  The  music was born from the streets and the streets in Black neighborhoods are not abstract or hermetic.

4hero is a UK group that includes elements of hip-hop along with other styles like nu-jazz, and their lyrics are more ephemeral.

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #306 on: June 12, 2018, 09:29:19 AM »
The music was born from the streets and the streets in Black neighborhoods are not abstract or hermetic.

Rock music was originally born from teenage rebellion etc., but by the late 1960s it had been developed both musically and lyrically in ways that were often foreign to that original context and demographic. The same is true mutatis mutandis for various other genres like jazz. Similarly, I see no reason why there cannot be some hip-hop artists out there, whether African-American or not, who have completely removed the "streets" context from their rapping.

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #307 on: June 12, 2018, 11:07:32 PM »
Classical music 'should learn from hip hop'

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-44444246

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #308 on: June 12, 2018, 11:45:23 PM »
You know, I never trust the modal verb "should" when applied to Art.  That's pusher talk.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #309 on: June 13, 2018, 06:01:17 AM »
Classical music 'should learn from hip hop'

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-44444246

That's nothing.  A New York music education teacher named Ethan Hein thinks that classical music is dead (or at least on life support), and its best chance at any form of survival is to be subsumed into popular music in the form of samples.

http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2018/the-orchestra-hit-as-a-possible-future-for-classical-music/
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #310 on: June 13, 2018, 06:21:53 AM »
These articles about the demise of classical music are based on a flawed premise, imo.  The journalists who wrote them are under the illusion that music is a commodity, and classical music cannot compete with pop and other forms of commercial music. 

But the music world is not a zero sum game.

Classical music will enjoy an audience as long as there are music schools. 

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #311 on: June 13, 2018, 07:20:20 AM »
These articles about the demise of classical music are based on a flawed premise, imo.  The journalists who wrote them are under the illusion that music is a commodity, and classical music cannot compete with pop and other forms of commercial music. 

But the music world is not a zero sum game.

Classical music will enjoy an audience as long as there are music schools. 

Perfectly true.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline arpeggio

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #312 on: June 13, 2018, 08:17:47 AM »
A problem that I have with the classical music is dead crowd is that it seems that most of them are American.  They may be correct concerning the status of classical music in the United States.  But I rarely hear a non-American claim that classical music is dying.  Maybe some of out non-American friends can clarify that status of classical music in their countries.

Offline CRCulver

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #313 on: June 13, 2018, 08:39:45 AM »
Classical music will enjoy an audience as long as there are music schools.

While that may be true of chamber music or solo pieces, it is hard to see live performances of orchestral repertoire surviving in places where the state or private patronage ceases to fund orchestras. They are entirely dependent on subsidy.

One sees some contemporary composers anticipating this by claiming that the orchestra’s time is past, and that their career and longevity would be better served by not writing for such expensive forces.

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #314 on: June 13, 2018, 08:47:15 AM »
Classical music will enjoy an audience as long as there are music schools.

And how long will that be?

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #315 on: June 13, 2018, 08:50:52 AM »
While that may be true of chamber music or solo pieces, it is hard to see live performances of orchestral repertoire surviving in places where the state or private patronage ceases to fund orchestras. They are entirely dependent on subsidy.

The European model was and continues to be state sponsorship. In the U.S., it was corporate sponsorship. But now that big firms are invariably "global" the quaint idea of "corporate citizenship" has fallen by the wayside. Big corporations no longer see a need to contribute to the livability of their corporate location. The tide goes the other way, they expect tax breaks and other bribes or they threaten to leave.

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #316 on: June 13, 2018, 09:05:58 AM »
While that may be true of chamber music or solo pieces, it is hard to see live performances of orchestral repertoire surviving in places where the state or private patronage ceases to fund orchestras. They are entirely dependent on subsidy.

One sees some contemporary composers anticipating this by claiming that the orchestra’s time is past, and that their career and longevity would be better served by not writing for such expensive forces.

The major US orchestras, probably, will always devote a sliver of their annual programming to living composers.

But (speaking as someone who wrote his first Symphony last year) it is a considerable challenge, trying to pitch a piece by a living composer, with a less-than-first-tier orchestra.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #317 on: June 13, 2018, 09:12:48 AM »
And how long will that be?

I suspect a long time.  Unless N. Korea nukes us out of existence.  Then none of this will matter.

snyprrr

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #318 on: June 13, 2018, 12:58:43 PM »
Separately, and (well) on topic . . .

This morning, the concierge downstairs told me that he listened to this, and likes it a lot.  There should be more guitar literature like this, he opined.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y_6LvnlZlTM" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Y_6LvnlZlTM</a>

That was truly awful. I've been booed for much less!!

Modern Composers still, it seems, have absolutely no idea what to do with the ELECTRIC guitar. I heard nothing there that couldn't have been played by acoustic guitars,... what was the point of it needing to be four electrics? Why is it that the electric is almost always treated in its absolutely plainest incarnation? And, yes,... no,... I don't want to hear any Polansky or Wolff, thank you.

aye, that really made me mad.... talk about "avant garde electric guitar tropes",... lol

Rock music was originally born from teenage rebellion etc., but by the late 1960s it had been developed both musically and lyrically in ways that were often foreign to that original context and demographic. The same is true mutatis mutandis for various other genres like jazz. Similarly, I see no reason why there cannot be some hip-hop artists out there, whether African-American or not, who have completely removed the "streets" context from their rapping.

sorry, but "street cred" is ALL there is...


btw- you do know that the 5% believe that Mozart was Black, and all that goes with it (whites stole classical from blacks like mozart... yes, it's an actual thing... just go to Yahoo and Search "American Inventors" and see what pops up)...

My whole point was that the MEANS to make most music are now in the hands of a centralized mega-industry run by themovers and shakers... who LET Lamar make his record.

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Re: Wuorinen's Whirlygig
« Reply #319 on: June 14, 2018, 12:02:38 AM »
That was truly awful. I've been booed for much less!!

I think Charles can live with the fact that not everybody likes this or that piece of his.

And . . . you’ve been booed?  Why, I’ll never believe it . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot