Author Topic: Tchaikovsky  (Read 52678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lukeottevanger

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2007, 04:07:04 AM »
well, we judge the achievements of composers  base on their symphonies.

Oh boy  ::)

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2007, 04:07:33 AM »
No, Luke, I didn't want to go there, either  8)

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7741
  • An American Hero!
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2007, 05:05:13 AM »
I strongly prefer the original sextet to the string orchestra arrangement of Pyotr Ilyich's Souvenir de Florence.

Is the counterpoint clearer maybe?

Do you have the same opinion for Schoenberg's  Verklärte Nacht ?
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2007, 05:09:26 AM »
Is the counterpoint clearer maybe?

Do you have the same opinion for Schoenberg's  Verklärte Nacht ?

Maybe I just like the lighter tread of the sextet in the Tchaikovsky.

Not sure that I prefer either form of the Schoenberg to the other . . . .

Offline Israfel the Black

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 163
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2007, 01:11:19 PM »
well, we judge the achievements of composers  base on their symphonies. Verdi was a great Opera composer, so it is only appropriate to compare him with other Opera Composers, not with symphonists.

Chopin achieved nothing then.  :(

Offline PerfectWagnerite

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3214
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2007, 01:39:54 PM »
Why do some folks like Dittersdorf?  I find his music architecturally sound but woefully lacking in artistry.  In a contest with Mahler, I'd say Dittersdorf should restrict his activities to doing Mahler's laundry.

Bravo Don ! At least someone with some sanity here.

mahlertitan

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2007, 03:18:04 PM »
Chopin achieved nothing then.  :(
that's not what i meant, we compare opera composers with opera composers, Verdi was a great "Opera Composer", same with instrumental composers, Chopin was a great "Piano Composer".

Offline scottscheule

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2007, 10:29:16 AM »
I've been listening to the Haitink symphony cycle (which also has, of course, some of the tone poems).

The first three symphonies were all new to me, and I'm growing to love them, if not as much as the latter three.  Eminently tuneful, attractively scored, quite colorful, lacking the depth of the final 4-6, but always fun.

Four, however, remains my favorite, as close as music gets to perfection.

I put Tchaikovsky firmly in the realm of the greats--his occasional problems with form notwithstanding.

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2007, 10:30:35 AM »
Splendid, Scott!

What tone-poems are furnished as "filler"?

Offline scottscheule

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2007, 10:40:26 AM »
Splendid, Scott!

What tone-poems are furnished as "filler"?

Looking them over now, I see none are officially called tone poems.  The old R&J, of course, along with Francesa da Rimini and the Storm (both new pieces to me), and all the guilty pleasures: the Slavonic March, the Capriccio Italien, and the 1812 Overture.

The set's rounded off with the Manfred Symphony--not sure what to think of it as of yet.  A bit messy and bloated is my current take.

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2007, 10:48:50 AM »
Oh, I think Francesca qualifies as a tone-poem (a one-movement symphonic fantasia by any other name . . . .) :-)

Is The Storm the 1864 overture published posthumously as Opus 76?  I should go back and listen to that again . . . .

Don't give up on Manfred! It's better than, perhaps, Haitink sets it forth . . . .

Offline scottscheule

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2007, 10:54:54 AM »
Oh, I think Francesca qualifies as a tone-poem (a one-movement symphonic fantasia by any other name . . . .) :-)

Is The Storm the 1864 overture published posthumously as Opus 76?  I should go back and listen to that again . . . .

Don't give up on Manfred! It's better than, perhaps, Haitink sets it forth . . . .

Yes, that's the Storm.  Not much to say about it. 

And because I value your opinion (and Piotr), I will have patience with Manfred.

Apropos of nothing, one thing I find characteristic of Tchaikovsky is an excellent ability to have multiple, distinct ideas occuring simultaneously.  The most ready example is the Waltz of the Flowers, during one of the occurences of the long horizontal theme, the woodwinds are constantly piercing it with descending and ascending chromatic scales.  Now surely other composers do this, but Tchaikovsky certainly has a talent for keeping the lines (long lovely melody paired with scales running up and down) quite different from one another, and yet weaving them together as a whole.  Something similar goes on in the movement II of the Fourth.  It's a delightful effect.

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7741
  • An American Hero!
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2007, 10:59:50 AM »
Oh, I think Francesca qualifies as a tone-poem (a one-movement symphonic fantasia by any other name . . . .) :-)

Is The Storm the 1864 overture published posthumously as Opus 76?  I should go back and listen to that again . . . .

Don't give up on Manfred! It's better than, perhaps, Haitink sets it forth . . . .

The Storm has some nice stuff, especially in the middle, but falls short of the greatness of Francesca, and the absolute greatest performance of this work is by Stokowski in the early 1970's: it is atomic!!!

And I have always thought Manfred to be Tchaikovsky's greatest symphony, ever since I heard a truncated version in the 1950's by Toscanini and the NBC Orchestra. 
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline scottscheule

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2007, 11:06:23 AM »
Rimini is impressive.  I'm generally suspicious of such long works, but it coheres well.

mahlertitan

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2007, 03:28:46 PM »
goodness! what a misunderstanding!

well, we judge the achievements of Symphonists base on their symphonies. Verdi was a great Opera composer, so it is only appropriate to compare him with other Opera Composers, not with symphonists.

Offline david johnson

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 881
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2007, 12:47:15 AM »
ballets, guys.  i think he was a ballet composer who could write other stuff.  :)

dj

Harry

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2007, 01:14:50 AM »
Tchaikovsky is the most versatile composer around.
Apart from his beautiful opera's, I love most fervently what he wrote.
Number one for me.
His gorgeous ballet music is life enhancing. :)

Offline Gabriel

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 489
  • A Chilean in Santiago (Vivat Haydn!)
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2007, 07:04:02 AM »
When I consider Tchaikovsky's piano trio, I guess I cannot qualify him as a "decent" composer. Some of his works might just be "decent", but some of them are first rate.

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2007, 07:13:53 AM »
When I consider Tchaikovsky's piano trio, I guess I cannot qualify him as a "decent" composer. Some of his works might just be "decent", but some of them are first rate.

The Piano Trio and the string sextet Souvenir de Florence are magnifique.

Offline scottscheule

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: Tchaikovsky
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2007, 08:13:52 AM »
The Piano Trio and the string sextet Souvenir de Florence are magnifique.

And unforgiveably, I know neither.  The only piece of chamber music I'm familiar with is the first string quartet (lovely little thing).

Went over Manfred again last night.  Takes a lot of concentration--but the first movement is quite enjoyable.

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK