Author Topic: The Early Music Club (EMC)  (Read 169001 times)

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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1120 on: December 19, 2017, 04:12:04 AM »
What do the assembled early music mavens think of this idea from  Memelsdorff?:

In his . . .  mass movements he . . .  devised a system for alternating between the sonorities of sung and played melodic lines.


This does not seem to be directed towards the common alternatim practice (organ verse 1, choir verse 2, organ verse 3 et.c.), but is a question of whether the organ (or other instruments) can alternate with the vocalist(s) in the same verse. I do not know if anybody knows the answer. In Machaut's mass there are a few places, where the writing seems very instrumental, but I doubt if this can be used as an indication of any intended instrumental performance. I have not seen Matteo's scores, so I do not know what Memelsdorff builds his theory upon.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 04:18:38 AM by (: premont :) »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1121 on: December 19, 2017, 04:20:02 AM »
Indeed. He says

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The manuscript makes a distinction . . . but also between sung phrases and instrumental responses within the same melodic line. Such 'horizontal' dialogue ranges from occasional comment (Puisque je sui, Gia da rete d'Amor) to constant alternation between a voice and a 'solo' instrument (Helas Am' and, most of all, A qui Fortune): so as to create a fundamental tension between textual rhetoric and its abstract and numerical musical representation. This might be Matteo's greatest contribution to later styles — from Grenon to Dufay or Binchois.

though it's not clear if this applies to the sacred music.


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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1122 on: December 19, 2017, 05:13:31 AM »
I'll just add that in the Missa Cantilena, the Gloria En Attendant, which is attributed to MdP, the instrumental part is very characterful, and there does seem to be a "fundamental tension" between voice and instruments, to use Memelsdorff's rather nice turn of phrase. Not disimilar from what you have in A qui fortune on Hélas Avril. Very exciting  music making from Mala Punica I'd say.
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1123 on: December 19, 2017, 05:39:57 AM »
I'll just add that in the Missa Cantilena, the Gloria En Attendant, which is attributed to MdP, the instrumental part is very characterful, and there does seem to be a "fundamental tension" between voice and instruments, to use Memelsdorff's rather nice turn of phrase. Not disimilar from what you have in A qui fortune on Hélas Avril. Very exciting  music making from Mala Punica I'd say.

In secular music from that age there are no definite indications as to whether a line should be instrumental or vocal, there are only modern theories. And we shall never know for sure. So Memelsdorff's theories may be just as valid as anyone else's. And as to sacred music we only know, that the only allowed instrument in the church was the organ, but we do not know, how it was used in relation to the mass proper, if at all. But if the composer intended a horizontal dialogue between singers and an instrumental part, he most probably meant the organ to be used.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1124 on: December 28, 2017, 01:32:22 PM »


So what we have here is motets by a prolific composer called Jean Hanelle, possibly from Cambrai, all his work collected in a large manuscript in Turin which, up to now, has been dismissed by musicologists as formulaic, mass produced, mainstream, probably written under time pressures, more concerned with medieval scholastic ideas than with expressiveness or beauty.

Then along comes Bjorn Schmelzer, and he says that the manuscript contains some isorhythmic Latin motets  which make a cycle. And I must say it makes a fabulous cycle too! Hallucinatory music  music. No one could say that they are formulaic, mass produced.

So what's happened? The answer is, of course, that Graindelavoix have been been inspired by the texts to liberally add expression to their performances

Quote
It is the performer who puts this exegetic work into play by articulating these figurae, phrasing the sequential and mnemonic aspects of the isorhythmic formula and creating and integrating cadences with the help of musica ficta which structure the movement and create affective suspense, drive, dynamic. Understanding for the per- former and the listener means being affective and being affected: being moved.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 02:23:24 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1125 on: December 28, 2017, 03:09:41 PM »


So what we have here is motets by a prolific composer called Jean Hanelle, possibly from Cambrai, all his work collected in a large manuscript in Turin which, up to now, has been dismissed by musicologists as formulaic, mass produced, mainstream, probably written under time pressures, more concerned with medieval scholastic ideas than with expressiveness or beauty.

Then along comes Bjorn Schmelzer, and he says that the manuscript contains some isorhythmic Latin motets  which make a cycle. And I must say it makes a fabulous cycle too! Hallucinatory music  music. No one could say that they are formulaic, mass produced.

So what's happened? The answer is, of course, that Graindelavoix have been been inspired by the texts to liberally add expression to their performances

Is this new?  I must look it up.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1126 on: December 31, 2017, 01:35:09 AM »
Here are some letters between Sigiswald Kuijken and Bjorn Schmelzer

http://www.graindelavoix.org/pdfs/musica%20antiqua%20revisited%20english.pdf
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1127 on: December 31, 2017, 01:52:34 AM »


So what we have here is motets by a prolific composer called Jean Hanelle, possibly from Cambrai, all his work collected in a large manuscript in Turin which, up to now, has been dismissed by musicologists as formulaic, mass produced, mainstream, probably written under time pressures, more concerned with medieval scholastic ideas than with expressiveness or beauty.

Then along comes Bjorn Schmelzer, and he says that the manuscript contains some isorhythmic Latin motets  which make a cycle. And I must say it makes a fabulous cycle too! Hallucinatory music  music. No one could say that they are formulaic, mass produced.

So what's happened? The answer is, of course, that Graindelavoix have been been inspired by the texts to liberally add expression to their performances

Is this new?  I must look it up.


I did not realize at first that this is the 2016 recording Cypriot Vespers (your image was hard to read).  I have this in my collection and like most of Schmelzer's recordings I enjoyed it for a while before the sound becomes strident and I don't listen anymore.  But I should listen again since it's been probably a year since I last put it in the player.

Here are some letters between Sigiswald Kuijken and Bjorn Schmelzer

http://www.graindelavoix.org/pdfs/musica%20antiqua%20revisited%20english.pdf

Long-winded chaps.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1128 on: December 31, 2017, 02:21:48 AM »

 I enjoyed it for a while before the sound becomes strident and I don't listen anymore

I can well imagine this is true, once the novelty wears off. At some point I'd like to make sense of what they do about the textual interrelationships (alleged) between the two poems in the double O-motets. They seem to suggest that there's a sort of third meaning which comes into existence through the clash of the other two in the performance - we shall see of this is bullshit or deep . . . I have a slight suspicion that what Schmelzer does is superficial in this sense: it's exciting and strange at first but once you've heard it you know what they do and there's no point in going back. It's all surfaces. I hope I'm wrong.

I listened last night to Si Didero (Agricola) by Schmelzer and Orlando Consort (theirs is on the excellent CD called A Toledo Summit -- my favourite Orlando CD)

Schmelzer uses instruments to replace two of the voices (no idea why!) and he balances it so that the voice which remains is sometimes almost drowned out. His performance is thrilling and sensual, visceral.

Orlando is intimate and rarefied, I much prefer the Orlando version.

I first got interested in Agricola's Si Didero years ago because Obrecht wrote an excellent mass based on it. I think it was a real hit for Agricola.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 02:32:47 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1129 on: January 01, 2018, 05:30:39 PM »
Does anyone here have anything by an ensemble called Mora Vocis? I'd never heard of them until stumbling across one of their discs by accident earlier today. I can't find much info online other than their website, which mentions "circus artists, actors or dancer-choreographers" joining the ensemble in performances and also says that "rather than attempting to produce a historical reconstruction, Mora Vocis simply shares its passion for these musical treasures, from virtuosic neumæ to the complex polyphony of Ars subtilior."

I can't say the above sounds overly promising, on the other hand the few samples I've heard sound better than expected. A search of this forum yielded no results, so I'm guessing no-one here is familiar with them, but if anyone is I'd be interested to know what you think of them.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1130 on: January 07, 2018, 05:36:09 AM »


Just a post to draw the attention to this extraordinary recording of exquisite and quiet C12 latin music. It turns out that Mauricio Melina  is an academic in the field working out of Montpellier, and the music here comes out of his research. What I can say with some confidence is that there's a tone of authenticity. I don't mean anything to do with historical accuracy, that's something I can't comment on. I mean that there's nothing rote or uninspired about the music making here, there's an honesty about about what they do, I can't explain it better than that.

I came across it while exploring Philippe Le Chancelier - it stood out, as it were.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 06:01:04 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1131 on: January 07, 2018, 05:52:18 AM »
Does anyone here have anything by an ensemble called Mora Vocis? I'd never heard of them until stumbling across one of their discs by accident earlier today. I can't find much info online other than their website, which mentions "circus artists, actors or dancer-choreographers" joining the ensemble in performances and also says that "rather than attempting to produce a historical reconstruction, Mora Vocis simply shares its passion for these musical treasures, from virtuosic neumæ to the complex polyphony of Ars subtilior."

I can't say the above sounds overly promising, on the other hand the few samples I've heard sound better than expected. A search of this forum yielded no results, so I'm guessing no-one here is familiar with them, but if anyone is I'd be interested to know what you think of them.

I'd come across their CD called Tombeau before and I remember thinking it was interesting but didn't pursue it, just listening for about 10 minutes to random tracks makes me think that they're rather good as you suggest. I found this - if you want me to translate it let me know. I'd quite like to go to a concert  ;)

Quote
Mora Vocis est un ensemble à voix de femmes spécialisé dans l'interprétation des musiques du Moyen-Age et d'aujourd'hui. Sa particularité est de chanter non pas en position de concert traditionnel mais en déambulation dans les lieux qu'elles investissent, qu'ils soient patrimoniaux ou contemporains. L'ensemble existe depuis 1986 mais connaît une étape nouvelle cette année avec l'arrivée d'une directrice artistique, Els Janssens-Vanmunster (il fonctionnait avant sans direction artistique) et le début d'un partenariat de recherche, de création et de formation de 4 ans à l'Université Montpellier III. Ce nouveau site doit marquer cette évolution en réaffirmant l'identité de l'ensemble, en marquant sa qualité et son exigence musicale dans des répertoires très pointus tout en mettant en avant sa créativité, sa capacité à décaler le regard sur cette musique pour la rendre «contemporaine».

http://www.moravocis.fr/english--

Looks like Montpellier is the place to be
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 05:58:33 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1132 on: January 07, 2018, 06:50:11 AM »


Just a post to draw the attention to this extraordinary recording of exquisite and quiet C12 latin music. It turns out that Mauricio Melina  is an academic in the field working out of Montpellier, and the music here comes out of his research. What I can say with some confidence is that there's a tone of authenticity. I don't mean anything to do with historical accuracy, that's something I can't comment on. I mean that there's nothing rote or uninspired about the music making here, there's an honesty about about what they do, I can't explain it better than that.

I came across it while exploring Philippe Le Chancelier - it stood out, as it were.

I can't read the print on your back cover and without the cover art there is a question: Are you referencing the recording Vacillantus by the ensemble Magister Petrus ?
 


If so, it is excellent example of 12th century music.

Offline San Antone

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1133 on: January 07, 2018, 06:54:11 AM »
Does anyone here have anything by an ensemble called Mora Vocis? I'd never heard of them until stumbling across one of their discs by accident earlier today. I can't find much info online other than their website, which mentions "circus artists, actors or dancer-choreographers" joining the ensemble in performances and also says that "rather than attempting to produce a historical reconstruction, Mora Vocis simply shares its passion for these musical treasures, from virtuosic neumæ to the complex polyphony of Ars subtilior."

I can't say the above sounds overly promising, on the other hand the few samples I've heard sound better than expected. A search of this forum yielded no results, so I'm guessing no-one here is familiar with them, but if anyone is I'd be interested to know what you think of them.

I am not a fan of all female groups, generally.  But their repertoire is a cut above the average and their aversion to vibrato is a plus.  In places they almost sound like men, another plus.

Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1134 on: January 07, 2018, 10:14:20 AM »
I can't read the print on your back cover and without the cover art there is a question: Are you referencing the recording Vacillantus by the ensemble Magister Petrus ?
 


If so, it is excellent example of 12th century music.

Yes that's the one. I like it very much, I've played it twice today, it's obviously touched the spot.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1135 on: January 07, 2018, 10:51:28 AM »
I am not a fan of all female groups, generally.

Well in that case you should avoid this one from Ensemble Providencia, which I also found today, it's outstanding, I prefer the sound this group makes to La Reverdie I think. Unfortunately they seem to have made just one CD and then disappeared. The way they create counterpoints  out of this music is really nice, there are sometimes juicy dissonances and unexpected textures. 

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Offline milk

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1136 on: January 19, 2018, 06:51:09 PM »
I can't speak to the authenticity of this music and I don't think it's been mentioned here, but I'm enjoying this. I believe he plays some version of an ancient lyre:

And this even more:

I don't know much about this musician, Michael Levy. I'm checking out his website. He dresses up:

But is he the only one making this kind of music? I love it. I'm curious what others might think. I don't have ANYTHING like this in my collection.

Offline Mr. Minnow

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1137 on: January 22, 2018, 05:45:45 PM »
I managed to get hold of a couple of Mora Vocis CDs:

   

From the bits I've heard so far it seems it was worth taking a chance on them. It's a shame their releases are generally only available at stupid prices.


Is anyone familiar with this:




I just came across it while looking for something else. It's the sort of thing I'd normally buy in a heartbeat, so I wondered if it was something I'd seen ages ago, tried the samples and not liked them and then forgotten about it. But the samples sound fine, so unless I bought it years ago and have completely forgotten doing so (possible if it's in a pile of discs tucked away in a corner somewhere out of sight, but still, not very likely) it would appear to be one that slipped through the net.

Offline Fidgety

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1138 on: January 22, 2018, 07:32:34 PM »
Yes that's the one. I like it very much, I've played it twice today, it's obviously touched the spot.

Sold!  You should get a commission!
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Online Mandryka

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Re: The Early Music Club (EMC)
« Reply #1139 on: January 23, 2018, 05:56:34 AM »
I




Is anyone familiar with this:




I just came across it while looking for something else. It's the sort of thing I'd normally buy in a heartbeat, so I wondered if it was something I'd seen ages ago, tried the samples and not liked them and then forgotten about it. But the samples sound fine, so unless I bought it years ago and have completely forgotten doing so (possible if it's in a pile of discs tucked away in a corner somewhere out of sight, but still, not very likely) it would appear to be one that slipped through the net.

The sound seems fine, if close. I mean, it's perfectly listenable.

He takes it pretty fast in all four parts of the ordinarium. It's a performance, without a sense of inwardness or prayer or expressiveness apart from thrilling speed. He's memorably good in the amen of the gloria. IMO very bad in the benedictus. Meh elsewhere
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 05:58:57 AM by Mandryka »
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