Author Topic: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major  (Read 15162 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sean

  • Guest
Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« on: November 12, 2007, 10:22:11 AM »
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 08:09:03 AM »
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.

Ruins of Athens is great music!
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Offline Josquin des Prez

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3654
  • Lyric Suite, Opus131
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 12:20:08 PM »
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.

Bullshit.

Ruins of Athens is great music!

Bullshit.


Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 01:20:57 PM »
Bullshit.

Bullshit.



Ah yes it's good to be back at GMG...
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Offline Josquin des Prez

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3654
  • Lyric Suite, Opus131
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2007, 01:44:23 PM »
Riveting, isn't it?

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 02:00:13 AM »
Riveting, isn't it?

Not really. It might be if the moderators kicked out the abusive riff raff. Alas they seem consistently unwilling or incapable of doing so.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Offline knight66

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10101
  • Location: Edinburgh
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 03:12:58 AM »
Rod, Try reading the rules of the site. Josquin's opinions may be poorly expressed, they may not adhere to some standards you expect; but that is no reason to ban someone. This site runs to Rob's rules, not yours....you seemed not to be able to grasp that concept last time round. If someone insults you, let us know, if they don't like the music or the opinions, they are free to say so.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 03:34:27 AM »
Rod, Try reading the rules of the site. Josquin's opinions may be poorly expressed, they may not adhere to some standards you expect; but that is no reason to ban someone. This site runs to Rob's rules, not yours....you seemed not to be able to grasp that concept last time round. If someone insults you, let us know, if they don't like the music or the opinions, they are free to say so.

Mike

This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely. Meanwhile you are giving ME a hard time for complaining about it. I can't imagine a more perverse situation. I pressed the report post button already with no result, but considering your comment here, I needn't have bothered.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 03:45:55 AM by Rod Corkin »
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Mozart

  • Guest
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 03:46:45 AM »
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely. I pressed the report post button already with no result, but considering your comment here, I needn't have bothered.

Maybe you are to civilized for the rest of us. It was clearly bullshit that Beethoven's symphonies are trashy, get over it huh. If I was at that seminar I would have gotten up and yelled bullshit.

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 03:48:16 AM »
Maybe you are to civilized for the rest of us. It was clearly bullshit that Beethoven's symphonies are trashy, get over it huh. If I was at that seminar I would have gotten up and yelled bullshit.

Get a grip, the comment I made was not a quote and certainly was not bullshit. READ!!!

But I could tollerate the profanity if it was coupled with some intelligent insight, something that is a rare commodity here.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 03:53:11 AM by Rod Corkin »
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Offline drogulus

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9212
  • Gypsy, 1970
  • Location: Watertown, MA
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2007, 05:57:47 AM »
I went to a seminar the other week where this Oxford/ Berkeley chap argued for Beethoven's symphonies being trashy, particularly the Fifth and Ninth, because he could point to homologous features in other rather bombastic music, such as in the Ruins of Athens numbers. Any serious listener knows though there are numerous composers where traits in their major works can be found in the minor ones also- this enriches and may well complicate the situation, but to argue against 200 years of critical appraisal saying that the Beethoven symphonies are great works can only be done by residing very high up away from reality in an ivory tower. On the deeper levels art and society may issue from the same source but I'm sceptical about relating music to anything else because the tendency is to have then explained it away.

     Why can't the trashy works and the great ones share characteristics? I think it's a wonderful and mysterious fact that this is so. It should only bother you if you think great music has some essence imported from Beyond. Since there are no Platonists here there's no need to worry, eh, Sean? ;)

     I don't know Ruins Of Athens. Fellow trash collectors: Could anyone point me to a clip of Athens? Would exposure to it ruin the symphonies for a healthy adult?

     
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:56.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/56.0 Waterfox/56.2.13
      
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:64.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/64.0

MN Dave

  • Guest
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2007, 06:13:44 AM »
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely.

Don't get out much?

Offline Josquin des Prez

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3654
  • Lyric Suite, Opus131
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 07:24:46 AM »
This is the only site I can think of whereby members can routinely refer to other members comments as 'bullshit' and get away with it completely.

Routinely? I'm possibly the only one here who would resort to such antics and i don't post much.

In all fairness, what did you expect? The original comment deserved nothing more, and your response wasn't exactly a paragon in common sense, either.


Harry

  • Guest
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 07:26:18 AM »
Still, you could use more polite words to say what's on you heart, and in this repect Rod is right.....

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2007, 07:47:52 AM »
     Why can't the trashy works and the great ones share characteristics? I think it's a wonderful and mysterious fact that this is so. It should only bother you if you think great music has some essence imported from Beyond. Since there are no Platonists here there's no need to worry, eh, Sean? ;)

     I don't know Ruins Of Athens. Fellow trash collectors: Could anyone point me to a clip of Athens? Would exposure to it ruin the symphonies for a healthy adult?

     

There is more to Ruins.. than the overture, there are a number of other vocal and instrumental pieces too. In fact this music is packed with 'hits' and I'm surprised it is not better known. I have a recording of all of it, a rare thing. Maybe if you ask at my site I'll oblige you with a track or two. GMG is not in my good books today...
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2007, 07:49:56 AM »
Routinely? I'm possibly the only one here who would resort to such antics and i don't post much.

In all fairness, what did you expect? The original comment deserved nothing more, and your response wasn't exactly a paragon in common sense, either.


Believe me, you're not the only one from my experience here. Concerning my earlier comment, have you actually heard all the music from Ruins of Athens?
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2007, 07:55:34 AM »
Still, you could use more polite words to say what's on you heart, and in this repect Rod is right.....

Only this respect Harry?  :o
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Harry

  • Guest
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2007, 07:58:44 AM »
Only this respect Harry?  :o

Of course not......

Offline Josquin des Prez

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3654
  • Lyric Suite, Opus131
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2007, 08:20:52 AM »
Concerning my earlier comment, have you actually heard all the music from Ruins of Athens?

Yes i did. Is it bad music? Of course not. Is it a great masterpiece in the same order as the ninth? Not even close.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:23:49 AM by Josquin des Prez »

Offline Rod Corkin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 565
    • Classical Music Mayhem
Re: Beethoven's minor works argued as counting against his major
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2007, 08:30:08 AM »
Yes i did. Is it bad music? Of course not. Is it a great masterpiece in the same order as the ninth? Not even close.

Who said that? I said it was great music, and great music it is! 'Great' means many things. How many pieces by any composer compare with the 9th for God's sake?? Yet there are still many other great pieces. I even get great joy from Beethoven's humble mandolin music!
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/