Author Topic: Mozart  (Read 105117 times)

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Offline Madiel

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1060 on: May 12, 2017, 03:47:24 PM »
Possibly the fact that it quotes from a comic aria in "The Abduction from the Seraglio". Though I don't know for certain that's the coda, one reference says it's the "final" theme of the symphony.
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Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1061 on: May 12, 2017, 07:58:42 PM »
Possibly the fact that it quotes from a comic aria in "The Abduction from the Seraglio". Though I don't know for certain that's the coda, one reference says it's the "final" theme of the symphony.

That would make sense. But I wonder why the note-writer was so coy in assuming we'd know what it was.

Anyway "Abduction" is K. 384 and the symphony is K. 385. Not much time to get to know the opera before the symphony came out, I think.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1062 on: May 12, 2017, 09:14:47 PM »
Apparently there was only a couple of weeks between premieres, yes. But presumably that would be why they threw in the remark about the audience being Mozart's friends.

Anyway I agree it's a needlessly coy comment. And I can't even be sure my answer is right, I'd have to go have a listen to the aria and the symphony movement.
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1064 on: October 01, 2017, 09:10:32 PM »
Listened to Mozart String Quintet in E-flat (K614). That finale of that piece has to be one of the great creations of the human mind. It is a rondo with a theme of infinitely playful subtlety, and in the episodes counterpoint that would confound Bach creeps in, as if from the woodwork, and permeates the music. The process by which a human being can invent this fascinates me.

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1065 on: October 01, 2017, 10:38:48 PM »
Listened to Mozart String Quintet in E-flat (K614). That finale of that piece has to be one of the great creations of the human mind. It is a rondo with a theme of infinitely playful subtlety, and in the episodes counterpoint that would confound Bach creeps in, as if from the woodwork, and permeates the music. The process by which a human being can invent this fascinates me.

Listening to Grumiaux Trio + 2

The last movement stands out  in the quintet - contrapuntal without being severe. I think it's unexpected to find this in the context of the previous thre movements, which seem more folksy and non-virtuosic. 
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1066 on: October 01, 2017, 10:59:23 PM »
The whole quintet seems to contain an even stronger homage to Haydn than the eponymous quartets. The whole mood is rustic in a haydnesque way, the first movement seems a nod to the beginning of Haydn's op.50/3, the variations also sound like Haydn and the finale's theme is inspired by the finale from Haydn's op.64/6. One could almost think of it as Mozart's farewell to Haydn departing to London.
For some reason, maybe because it is rustic and short and not as obviously profound or expansive like the preceding quintets, this last quintet seems often overlooked. It is a great piece anyway.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1067 on: October 01, 2017, 11:36:38 PM »
Those are interesting comments about Haydn.

By the way someone posted here a few days ago about how much they were enjoying the adagio from 593, which prompted me to listen to the quintet. What a fabulous piece of music it is! And how totally different in feel from 614.
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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1068 on: October 02, 2017, 07:17:06 AM »
By the way someone posted here a few days ago about how much they were enjoying the adagio from 593, which prompted me to listen to the quintet. What a fabulous piece of music it is! And how totally different in feel from 614.

That was me, I believe.

The whole quintet seems to contain an even stronger homage to Haydn than the eponymous quartets. The whole mood is rustic in a haydnesque way, the first movement seems a nod to the beginning of Haydn's op.50/3, the variations also sound like Haydn and the finale's theme is inspired by the finale from Haydn's op.64/6. One could almost think of it as Mozart's farewell to Haydn departing to London.
For some reason, maybe because it is rustic and short and not as obviously profound or expansive like the preceding quintets, this last quintet seems often overlooked. It is a great piece anyway.

The influence of Haydn is clear, but the description of chamber music written by Haydn or Mozart as rustic is alway hard for me to relate to. The exception might be some of the trios that Mozart composed for his string quartets and quintets (KV614 included).

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1069 on: May 14, 2018, 03:29:51 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but some composers believe composition came very easily to Mozart and would also accuse him of being lazy.  For example it was easier for him to write new music to fit an opera scene than bend down and pick up what might have fallen on the floor.  This sounds quite ludicrous.  I was just wondering if there was any historical evidence that showed that Mozart really worked hard and struggled to compose the way we have with Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, or Mahler?

Offline Ken B

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1070 on: May 14, 2018, 03:48:45 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but some composers believe composition came very easily to Mozart and would also accuse him of being lazy.  For example it was easier for him to write new music to fit an opera scene than bend down and pick up what might have fallen on the floor.  This sounds quite ludicrous.  I was just wondering if there was any historical evidence that showed that Mozart really worked hard and struggled to compose the way we have with Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, or Mahler?
Letters to his father. Clearly he had an extraordinary facility with composition, but he didn’t just wake up and transcribe last nights dream. But one thing that comes across is he was anything but lazy.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1071 on: May 14, 2018, 04:29:47 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but some composers believe composition came very easily to Mozart and would also accuse him of being lazy.  For example it was easier for him to write new music to fit an opera scene than bend down and pick up what might have fallen on the floor.  This sounds quite ludicrous.

This anecdote is told about Rossini, not Mozart.

I was just wondering if there was any historical evidence that showed that Mozart really worked hard and struggled to compose the way we have with Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, or Mahler?

Mahler didn't struggle to compose as much as some people imagined.  He worked quite quickly and decisively on any given work, but he was only able to compose during the summers, which slowed his output.

Still, he didn't compose nearly as quickly as Mozart, but this is not because Mozart was able to compose without any forethought, so much as that Mozart was always working on something and he jotted down a lot of scraps and ideas that he fleshed out later on.  Far from being lazy, Mozart was one of the most industrious of all composers, and he often did sketch out material for compositions before drafting a final version.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1072 on: May 14, 2018, 04:39:29 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but some composers believe composition came very easily to Mozart and would also accuse him of being lazy.  For example it was easier for him to write new music to fit an opera scene than bend down and pick up what might have fallen on the floor.  This sounds quite ludicrous.  I was just wondering if there was any historical evidence that showed that Mozart really worked hard and struggled to compose the way we have with Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, or Mahler?

Here is a translation of the dedication to the Haydn Quartets:


Quote
[Letter from Mozart to Haydn – Sept 1]
[Used by Artaria as the score dedication – Original in Italian, familiar form]

To my dear friend Haydn,
A father who had resolved to send his children out into the great world finds it advisable to entrust them to the protection and guidance of a highly celebrated Man, especially since this man, by a stroke of luck, is his best Friend. Here then, celebrated Man and dearest Friend, are my six sons. They are, it is true, the fruit of a long and laborious endeavor, yet the hope inspired in me by several Friends that it may be at least partly compensated encourages me, and I flatter myself that this offspring will serve to afford me solace one day.

The existing autograph manuscripts are not 'fair copies', and they are absolutely full of cross-outs, attempted erasures, edits etc., and were obviously exactly what Mozart said, "the fruit of long and laborious endeavour".

Besides what Ken has mentioned about letters home, there has also been done a lot of detective work in recent years. Constanze Mozart was trying to build a legend around Wolfgang so that she could make the most return from his legacy of music, which was just about all he left behind to take care of his surviving sons. One of the ways she did this was by inventing the fable that he was such a genius that he was able to write whole great chunks of music and carry them around in his head until they needed to be written down to be used. And one of the ways she gave credence to that vision was by destroying all of his notes and preliminary sketches that she could lay her hands on, so she could say that he never even made any sketches.

Did he struggle like Beethoven? No, I can't believe he did. He really WAS that sort of genius. However, he worked his ass off just like any other composer. It's one thing to have ideas come easily, but constructing a finished work out of them is something else altogether. :)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1073 on: May 14, 2018, 04:46:46 PM »
This anecdote is told about Rossini, not Mozart.

Mahler didn't struggle to compose as much as some people imagined.  He worked quite quickly and decisively on any given work, but he was only able to compose during the summers, which slowed his output.

Still, he didn't compose nearly as quickly as Mozart, but this is not because Mozart was able to compose without any forethought, so much as that Mozart was always working on something and he jotted down a lot of scraps and ideas that he fleshed out later on.  Far from being lazy, Mozart was one of the most industrious of all composers, and he often did sketch out material for compositions before drafting a final version.

Sadly most of the sketches are gone, but I believe he sketched out everything, just like a real composer! :) 

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Offline Ken B

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1074 on: May 14, 2018, 05:17:41 PM »
Wrong composer, wrong thread, but I came across this whilst perusing Kindle books, and thought it might interest some.

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1075 on: May 14, 2018, 05:33:30 PM »
Wrong composer, wrong thread, but I came across this whilst perusing Kindle books, and thought it might interest some.



Cool! And there's a volume 2, also. Now OT: There is a Mozart mystery too, although I don't think Mozart is in it, it's about a modern forgery of a manuscript of a new work by... supposed to be quite good, the guy who wrote it is a Mozartian turned mystery writer.

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Offline Madiel

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1076 on: May 15, 2018, 02:50:52 PM »
I've read about Mozart's sketches for one of the string quartets (can't remember which one), which provide definite evidence of him having to rework a composition to solve a musical problem after being dissatisfied with the first version.

But his rate of working was reasonably fast. He's certainly not the only "fast" composer though. Dvorak is one that strikes me, partly because he seems to have left a large number of notes about dates of starting and finishing. Schumann could whip through at times. And of course Schubert is known to have produced songs at a great pace.
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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1077 on: May 15, 2018, 02:53:14 PM »
I've read about Mozart's sketches for one of the string quartets (can't remember which one), which provide definite evidence of him having to rework a composition to solve a musical problem after being dissatisfied with the first version.

But his rate of working was reasonably fast. He's certainly not the only "fast" composer though. Dvorak is one that strikes me, partly because he seems to have left a large number of notes about dates of starting and finishing. Schumann could whip through at times. And of course Schubert is known to have produced songs at a great pace.

I am really curious to know these speeds of composition.....can you supply a source or examples?

Offline Ken B

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1078 on: May 15, 2018, 03:36:36 PM »
I am really curious to know these speeds of composition.....can you supply a source or examples?
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1079 on: May 15, 2018, 04:49:58 PM »
I am really curious to know these speeds of composition.....can you supply a source or examples?

For Dvorak, it's easiest to just go explore this site: http://www.antonin-dvorak.cz/en/works/complete-list-by-genre

For Schumann I don't have a single source, just all the reports as I'm working through his compositions chronologically. But, for example, his 3 string quartets were all apparently completed in less than a month (to cite the thing I've listened to most recently). And the first symphony was done in a similar time.

Schubert's most famous example is writing multiple songs in a single day. I think the most is 8.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 04:52:23 PM by Madiel »
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