Author Topic: Mozart  (Read 106421 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31260
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1100 on: June 12, 2018, 03:29:28 AM »
Actually, they say that the autograph itself is unknown.

Yes, the original that Mollo worked from is missing. However, the fact that it was added to by Stadler makes it virtually certain that Constanze provided the autograph for it. There are quite a few of these pieces, the most famous being the Fantasia in d minor K 397 which he only left off the final 8 measures, IIRC.

This is not only not unusual, it is practically standard. Haydn sent dozens of manuscripts to Artaria between 1780 and 1800, but very few of his autographs for them survived. At the time, no one really cared about autographs. Many composers (Haydn and Mozart included) used to take sheets apart and give away pages as souvenirs to anyone they thought well of.

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1813
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1101 on: June 12, 2018, 04:58:56 AM »
Actually, they say that the autograph itself is unknown.

Thank you for clarifying. Although, on second thought, this really is a touch confusing. If it said: "Autograph: unbekannt", then, indeed, that would rather clearly indicate that the whereabouts of the autograph are unknown. But the way it is listed here, specifically listed as being among the used sources... and separated by a comma, the (grammatical) suggestion is that there is an autograph, but that the source of it is unknown. Which of course contradicts the word "Autograph", which indicates the creator of the work in question, not just some early copy. But then again, the word "autograph" is occasionally used even if another person than the creator of the work itself has written it... such when it was copied by a family member or dictated etc.

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31260
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1102 on: June 12, 2018, 05:15:16 AM »
Thank you for clarifying. Although, on second thought, this really is a touch confusing. If it said: "Autograph: unbekannt", then, indeed, that would rather clearly indicate that the whereabouts of the autograph are unknown. But the way it is listed here, specifically listed as being among the used sources... and separated by a comma, the (grammatical) suggestion is that there is an autograph, but that the source of it is unknown. Which of course contradicts the word "Autograph", which indicates the creator of the work in question, not just some early copy. But then again, the word "autograph" is occasionally used even if another person than the creator of the work itself has written it... such when it was copied by a family member or dictated etc.

...or if a composer had a personal copyist. Haydn 'fair copies' in the (very obvious) hand of Johann Elssler are considered by all but the most didactic critics as being the equivalent of Haydn autographs.

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline bwv 1080

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2102
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1103 on: June 12, 2018, 05:41:03 AM »
Is there any Mozart piece more brazenly dissonant throughout than the Minuet in D K355?  Such a strange little piece, but a fascinating one.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bAKd4YP5oeM" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bAKd4YP5oeM</a>

Neat chain of augmented 6th chords beginning in bar 5 - Going to F# then E and back to D before finishing the A section in the dominant A

I don't think its as striking as the intro to K465
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 15185
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1104 on: June 12, 2018, 05:42:31 AM »
Thank you for clarifying. Although, on second thought, this really is a touch confusing. If it said: "Autograph: unbekannt", then, indeed, that would rather clearly indicate that the whereabouts of the autograph are unknown. But the way it is listed here, specifically listed as being among the used sources... and separated by a comma, the (grammatical) suggestion is that there is an autograph, but that the source of it is unknown. Which of course contradicts the word "Autograph", which indicates the creator of the work in question, not just some early copy. But then again, the word "autograph" is occasionally used even if another person than the creator of the work itself has written it... such when it was copied by a family member or dictated etc.

Your grammatical analysis is very correct (could that comma be really a typo where they should actually have printed a colon ?) but there is one element which supports my interpretation, namely the absence of any indication about the autograph's location, as opposed to the locations clearly indicated for the Mollo, Offenbach and Charenton editions. If a physical "autograph" albeit of unknown provenience exists, then it should be located in some place (archive, library, muesum, even private collection) where the editors of the NMA could have consulted it. The absence of any such indication means, in my view, that the "autograph" does in fact not exist and "unbekannt" refers to the autograph itself, not to its provenience.
"The score is not a bible, and I am never afraid to dare. The music is behind those dots." - Vladimir Horowitz

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1813
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1105 on: June 12, 2018, 05:46:45 AM »
Your grammatical analysis is very correct (could that comma be really a typo where they should actually have printed a colon ?) but there is one element which supports my interpretation, namely the absence of any indication about the autograph's location, as opposed to the locations clearly indicated for the Mollo, Offenbach and Charenton editions. If a physical "autograph" albeit of unknown provenience exists, then it should be located in some place (archive, library, muesum, even private collection) where the editors of the NMA could have consulted it. The absence of any such indication means, in my view, that the "autograph" does in fact not exist and "unbekannt" refers to the autograph itself, not to its provenience.

Good point. In which case it's very likely just confusing and means exactly what you say it does.

Another mystery solved.  :D

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9665
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1106 on: June 12, 2018, 05:54:44 AM »
One side question of all of this is what exactly the place of dissonance was in gallant music. Gallant style was fine about dissonance -- it had to be the right type. My own favourite use of dissonance is by Bach in the F major duetto from CU 3, where he basically starts off writing gallantly and then in the middle section just lets rip with the dissonance and then at the end resolves it all rather beautifully.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M</a>
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, dar├╝ber muss man schweigen

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31260
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1107 on: June 12, 2018, 07:17:06 AM »
One side question of all of this is what exactly the place of dissonance was in gallant music. Gallant style was fine about dissonance -- it had to be the right type. My own favourite use of dissonance is by Bach in the F major duetto from CU 3, where he basically starts off writing gallantly and then in the middle section just lets rip with the dissonance and then at the end resolves it all rather beautifully.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M</a>

By the time of this piece, Mozart (and Haydn) have left galant music far behind. Galant is merely a predecessor style, along with Empfindsam and others, to the synthesis which is called retrospectively 'Viennese High Classical'. It is true, dissonance was only a smallish, in fact tiny, part of galant, but it was reincorporated by both Haydn and Mozart by the 1770's, along with fugato and other earlier forms (eg - variation, rondo) which they remodeled to fit in with sonata form. Any composer who was still writing a strictly galant style by now was not being listened to by many, I think. :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline PerfectWagnerite

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3274
Re: Mozart
« Reply #1108 on: June 13, 2018, 06:03:38 AM »
Neat chain of augmented 6th chords beginning in bar 5 - Going to F# then E and back to D before finishing the A section in the dominant A

I don't think its as striking as the intro to K465
I would also add the Fantasy in d minor K397 and the Overture to Don Giovanni.