Author Topic: Mozart  (Read 110226 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1100 on: June 12, 2018, 03:29:28 AM »
Actually, they say that the autograph itself is unknown.

Yes, the original that Mollo worked from is missing. However, the fact that it was added to by Stadler makes it virtually certain that Constanze provided the autograph for it. There are quite a few of these pieces, the most famous being the Fantasia in d minor K 397 which he only left off the final 8 measures, IIRC.

This is not only not unusual, it is practically standard. Haydn sent dozens of manuscripts to Artaria between 1780 and 1800, but very few of his autographs for them survived. At the time, no one really cared about autographs. Many composers (Haydn and Mozart included) used to take sheets apart and give away pages as souvenirs to anyone they thought well of.

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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1101 on: June 12, 2018, 04:58:56 AM »
Actually, they say that the autograph itself is unknown.

Thank you for clarifying. Although, on second thought, this really is a touch confusing. If it said: "Autograph: unbekannt", then, indeed, that would rather clearly indicate that the whereabouts of the autograph are unknown. But the way it is listed here, specifically listed as being among the used sources... and separated by a comma, the (grammatical) suggestion is that there is an autograph, but that the source of it is unknown. Which of course contradicts the word "Autograph", which indicates the creator of the work in question, not just some early copy. But then again, the word "autograph" is occasionally used even if another person than the creator of the work itself has written it... such when it was copied by a family member or dictated etc.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1102 on: June 12, 2018, 05:15:16 AM »
Thank you for clarifying. Although, on second thought, this really is a touch confusing. If it said: "Autograph: unbekannt", then, indeed, that would rather clearly indicate that the whereabouts of the autograph are unknown. But the way it is listed here, specifically listed as being among the used sources... and separated by a comma, the (grammatical) suggestion is that there is an autograph, but that the source of it is unknown. Which of course contradicts the word "Autograph", which indicates the creator of the work in question, not just some early copy. But then again, the word "autograph" is occasionally used even if another person than the creator of the work itself has written it... such when it was copied by a family member or dictated etc.

...or if a composer had a personal copyist. Haydn 'fair copies' in the (very obvious) hand of Johann Elssler are considered by all but the most didactic critics as being the equivalent of Haydn autographs.

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Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1103 on: June 12, 2018, 05:41:03 AM »
Is there any Mozart piece more brazenly dissonant throughout than the Minuet in D K355?  Such a strange little piece, but a fascinating one.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bAKd4YP5oeM" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bAKd4YP5oeM</a>

Neat chain of augmented 6th chords beginning in bar 5 - Going to F# then E and back to D before finishing the A section in the dominant A

I don't think its as striking as the intro to K465
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1104 on: June 12, 2018, 05:42:31 AM »
Thank you for clarifying. Although, on second thought, this really is a touch confusing. If it said: "Autograph: unbekannt", then, indeed, that would rather clearly indicate that the whereabouts of the autograph are unknown. But the way it is listed here, specifically listed as being among the used sources... and separated by a comma, the (grammatical) suggestion is that there is an autograph, but that the source of it is unknown. Which of course contradicts the word "Autograph", which indicates the creator of the work in question, not just some early copy. But then again, the word "autograph" is occasionally used even if another person than the creator of the work itself has written it... such when it was copied by a family member or dictated etc.

Your grammatical analysis is very correct (could that comma be really a typo where they should actually have printed a colon ?) but there is one element which supports my interpretation, namely the absence of any indication about the autograph's location, as opposed to the locations clearly indicated for the Mollo, Offenbach and Charenton editions. If a physical "autograph" albeit of unknown provenience exists, then it should be located in some place (archive, library, muesum, even private collection) where the editors of the NMA could have consulted it. The absence of any such indication means, in my view, that the "autograph" does in fact not exist and "unbekannt" refers to the autograph itself, not to its provenience.
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1105 on: June 12, 2018, 05:46:45 AM »
Your grammatical analysis is very correct (could that comma be really a typo where they should actually have printed a colon ?) but there is one element which supports my interpretation, namely the absence of any indication about the autograph's location, as opposed to the locations clearly indicated for the Mollo, Offenbach and Charenton editions. If a physical "autograph" albeit of unknown provenience exists, then it should be located in some place (archive, library, muesum, even private collection) where the editors of the NMA could have consulted it. The absence of any such indication means, in my view, that the "autograph" does in fact not exist and "unbekannt" refers to the autograph itself, not to its provenience.

Good point. In which case it's very likely just confusing and means exactly what you say it does.

Another mystery solved.  :D

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1106 on: June 12, 2018, 05:54:44 AM »
One side question of all of this is what exactly the place of dissonance was in gallant music. Gallant style was fine about dissonance -- it had to be the right type. My own favourite use of dissonance is by Bach in the F major duetto from CU 3, where he basically starts off writing gallantly and then in the middle section just lets rip with the dissonance and then at the end resolves it all rather beautifully.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M</a>
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1107 on: June 12, 2018, 07:17:06 AM »
One side question of all of this is what exactly the place of dissonance was in gallant music. Gallant style was fine about dissonance -- it had to be the right type. My own favourite use of dissonance is by Bach in the F major duetto from CU 3, where he basically starts off writing gallantly and then in the middle section just lets rip with the dissonance and then at the end resolves it all rather beautifully.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/769jqPhsT2M</a>

By the time of this piece, Mozart (and Haydn) have left galant music far behind. Galant is merely a predecessor style, along with Empfindsam and others, to the synthesis which is called retrospectively 'Viennese High Classical'. It is true, dissonance was only a smallish, in fact tiny, part of galant, but it was reincorporated by both Haydn and Mozart by the 1770's, along with fugato and other earlier forms (eg - variation, rondo) which they remodeled to fit in with sonata form. Any composer who was still writing a strictly galant style by now was not being listened to by many, I think. :)

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Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1108 on: June 13, 2018, 06:03:38 AM »
Neat chain of augmented 6th chords beginning in bar 5 - Going to F# then E and back to D before finishing the A section in the dominant A

I don't think its as striking as the intro to K465
I would also add the Fantasy in d minor K397 and the Overture to Don Giovanni.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Offline Marc

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1110 on: August 22, 2018, 01:29:26 AM »
The Deluxe Magic Flute Standard. Overrated or timeless?


https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-deluxe-magic-flute-standard/


Standards do not really exist, imho.
And it will never be the only-one-to-go-to, because there is no dialogue (or story teller, for what such a teller is worth).
But it is great vintage music making with a superb cast. Maybe Gedda is a bit too flat sometimes, but that's (of course) all subjective.
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Maison de Mozart
« Reply #1111 on: September 09, 2018, 10:42:36 PM »

Mozart And The Sound Of Nepotism



Standards do not really exist, imho.
And it will never be the only-one-to-go-to, because there is no dialogue (or story teller, for what such a teller is worth).
But it is great vintage music making with a superb cast. Maybe Gedda is a bit too flat sometimes, but that's (of course) all subjective.

Oh, "flat" isn't subjective... although some voices are deceptive. (Like Schwarzkopf, who tended to sound sharp, even when she wasn't, because her voice was sort of split at the very tip, without any fuzz to soften the edge.) As to your other point, I tend to agree and I say so much in the review -- albeit qualified to some extent. There's always Jacobs, for the full Singspiel.

Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1112 on: September 11, 2018, 07:53:01 AM »
The piano quartets are much better w/ period instruments IMO
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1113 on: September 11, 2018, 09:47:50 AM »
The piano quartets are much better w/ period instruments IMO



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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1114 on: September 11, 2018, 09:53:46 AM »
The piano quartets are much better w/ period instruments IMO

I still feel a compulsion to bring up this release every time the subject comes up.



I suspect there are those here who anticipate this. :)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1115 on: September 11, 2018, 10:13:49 AM »
I still feel a compulsion to bring up this release every time the subject comes up.



I suspect there are those here who anticipate this. :)

I ceded you the privilege...  There are actually 2 or 3 that I rate "Excellent", including The Festetics w/ Badura-Skoda, but this one is right there with 'em at the top of the heap. :)

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Offline aligreto

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1116 on: September 11, 2018, 10:16:26 AM »
I still feel a compulsion to bring up this release every time the subject comes up.



I suspect there are those here who anticipate this. :)

Yes indeed, I also agree that this is a wonderful CD.
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1117 on: September 11, 2018, 02:55:35 PM »
The piano quartets are much better w/ period instruments IMO

I've had two with PI. Disastrous, both.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1118 on: September 11, 2018, 03:01:52 PM »
I've had two with PI. Disastrous, both.

Which were they?

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Mozart
« Reply #1119 on: September 11, 2018, 03:16:16 PM »
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

 

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