Author Topic: Chopin  (Read 39475 times)

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Baron Scarpia

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #340 on: June 12, 2018, 01:52:30 PM »
The only other examples I can think of are composers with smaller outputs: Mahler, Ravel, Borodin, Janáček (and even then almost all of his choral music is rarely heard—not too different from Chopin's songs). Chopin might be the composer with the largest output of which almost all is heard frequently.

I don't know how you evaluate output size, but if you go by total duration of composed music a Chopin complete edition fits on 16 CDs, Ravel on 14 CDs, Mahler on 16 CDs. Debussy can be 24 CDs, but that is with a fair number of non-essential transcriptions.

Offline Madiel

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #341 on: June 12, 2018, 08:54:15 PM »
I think it was Tovey who said that some people wasted talents on music that would have been more useful in double-entry bookkeeping.
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Re: Chopin
« Reply #342 on: June 14, 2018, 12:53:40 PM »
What could be more modern or morose as the Prelude 25/2? (28??)
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Re: Chopin
« Reply #343 on: June 16, 2018, 10:15:17 AM »
Are there people who like the Etudes, but not the Preludes? I'm listening to Sokolov now and even he is getting on my nerves somewhat...

I dunno :(


Would Chopin and Liszt still LIKE their own music if they could here what came after? Woulld they immediate get to learning all the new stuff and reinventing themselves,... or would they continue writing 1849 Muisc?
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #344 on: June 17, 2018, 05:28:05 AM »
Are there people who like the Etudes, but not the Preludes? I'm listening to Sokolov now and even he is getting on my nerves somewhat...

I dunno :(


Would Chopin and Liszt still LIKE their own music if they could here what came after? Woulld they immediate get to learning all the new stuff and reinventing themselves,... or would they continue writing 1849 Muisc?

Uchida once said that she thought that the Chopin études where much more a test of technique and stamina than of poetic sensibility, I don’t know whether she was right about that.

I think pianists tend to go on and on about the Chopin études because they have to perform them for their peers, they’re piano student fodder.  I think the préludes are more interesting to listen to, though I suspect that the études have been very influential - think of the plethora of piano études in the  20th century, I bet Chopin was the cause of that phenomenon.

Liszt, of course, is not Chopin, Chopin never wrote anything like Liszt’s late music. The are glimmerings of a modernist Chopin, more so than Liszt I’d say, in things like the final movement of the second sonata.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 05:38:24 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline amw

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #345 on: June 17, 2018, 06:04:56 AM »
The Chopin études are written specifically to cover individual technical problems, but are also so difficult as to be impractical for students. (Either Op.10 no.1 or Op.25 no.10, depending on your individual abilities, would be Chopin's most difficult piece.) As such they're more things for piano students to aspire to; you don't usually have piano students actually attempting the études until university/conservatory level. Chopin himself performed selections of them as concert pieces, and instead used the Nocturnes to teach his students, apparently.

Imo there is not much musical interest in something like Op.10 no.2, compared to e.g. Op.10 no.3, but of course the ability to hear a flawless performance of something very difficult is still an appealing prospect regardless of the ~substance.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #346 on: June 17, 2018, 10:26:06 AM »


Imo there is not much musical interest in something like Op.10 no.2, compared to e.g. Op.10 no.3,

Here's a 10/3 from Ashkenazy, his first recording made in the USSR.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/oFGonibxzTI" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/oFGonibxzTI</a>


There's quite a nice review of the recording here

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Oct14/Chopin_etudes_MELCD1002108.htm
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:28:12 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #347 on: June 17, 2018, 11:14:13 AM »
The Chopin études are written specifically to cover individual technical problems, but are also so difficult as to be impractical for students. (Either Op.10 no.1 or Op.25 no.10, depending on your individual abilities, would be Chopin's most difficult piece.) As such they're more things for piano students to aspire to; you don't usually have piano students actually attempting the études until university/conservatory level. Chopin himself performed selections of them as concert pieces, and instead used the Nocturnes to teach his students, apparently.

Imo there is not much musical interest in something like Op.10 no.2, compared to e.g. Op.10 no.3, but of course the ability to hear a flawless performance of something very difficult is still an appealing prospect regardless of the ~substance.
The amazing part is they don't SOUND like etudes, more like miniature pieces.

I remember one of my daughter's piano teachers who WAS a conservatory student in piano performance used to practice Op 10 No 12 right before my daughter's class. I didn't know the piece (yeah where have I been right?) and I remember dear lord all these notes how does she keep track of them let alone play them !

Offline Madiel

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #348 on: June 17, 2018, 09:31:51 PM »
The musical interest of them varies in my opinion. Some of them wear their technical side too obviously to be great pieces of music.

Op.10 no.12 is, believe it or not, one of the more manageable ones if you know what you're doing and one that I managed to learn. More than anything it's about conservation of energy, and shaping the piece musically is the way to do it. If you go hell for leather your left arm will give out before you reach the end.
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Offline amw

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #349 on: June 17, 2018, 09:54:00 PM »
I learned Op.10 no.12 ages ago but have honestly forgotten most of it. It is certainly written more explicitly as a concert piece, compared to op.10 no.11, which I also learned and which is not nearly as musically interesting (though more valuable as an etude, at least for me and my hand size).

Op.10 no.12 is one of the only études that really focuses on the left hand, basically a much easier version of the hand-shifting in Op.10 no.1; the popularity of the Godowsky studies on the Chopin études is that they develop the left hand much more significantly than Chopin tried to. When I looked into using the Chopin études as the basis for teaching myself piano technique, I figured I'd have to supplement with the Godowsky versions of Op.10 no.2 and Op.25 no.6 at minimum.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #350 on: Today at 12:12:27 AM »
Uchida once said that she thought that the Chopin études where much more a test of technique and stamina than of poetic sensibility, I don’t know whether she was right about that.

Cortot would have disagreed with her. It is interesting to use his edition of the études and listen how he interpreted them. He usually gets more music out of them than most pianists.

Liszt, of course, is not Chopin, Chopin never wrote anything like Liszt’s late music. The are glimmerings of a modernist Chopin, more so than Liszt I’d say, in things like the final movement of the second sonata.

Chopin seemed to be in a new phase with his 3rd piano sonata, a return to form perhaps, rather than written out improvisations at times, not to denigrate them, of course.  I played Chopin all my life, in fact was the main incentive to play the piano in the first place, besides having heard some of Beethoven's music. As much as I value his works that I also learned like the Fantasie, the Ballades, etc., there is not the kind of actual development of material that Liszt was able to accomplish.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #351 on: Today at 01:20:08 AM »
there is not the kind of actual development of material that Liszt was able to accomplish.

Who says Chopin was attempting to accomplish the same things?
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #352 on: Today at 01:52:01 AM »
Who says Chopin was attempting to accomplish the same things?

No one, but don't call the repetitions of the same theme 3x in different keys in the Fantasie, or the thinly disguised variations fot the 4th Ballade for instance, as actual development of material.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #353 on: Today at 04:04:27 AM »


. . . than written out improvisations at times, not to denigrate them, of course. 

I can see where you’re coming from with the fourth movement of the second sonata. It’s presumably totally unlike anything else before or after.
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