Author Topic: Chopin  (Read 41135 times)

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Offline Madiel

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #340 on: June 12, 2018, 08:54:15 PM »
I think it was Tovey who said that some people wasted talents on music that would have been more useful in double-entry bookkeeping.
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Re: Chopin
« Reply #341 on: June 14, 2018, 12:53:40 PM »
What could be more modern or morose as the Prelude 25/2? (28??)

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #342 on: June 16, 2018, 10:15:17 AM »
Are there people who like the Etudes, but not the Preludes? I'm listening to Sokolov now and even he is getting on my nerves somewhat...

I dunno :(


Would Chopin and Liszt still LIKE their own music if they could here what came after? Woulld they immediate get to learning all the new stuff and reinventing themselves,... or would they continue writing 1849 Muisc?

Online Mandryka

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #343 on: June 17, 2018, 05:28:05 AM »
Are there people who like the Etudes, but not the Preludes? I'm listening to Sokolov now and even he is getting on my nerves somewhat...

I dunno :(


Would Chopin and Liszt still LIKE their own music if they could here what came after? Woulld they immediate get to learning all the new stuff and reinventing themselves,... or would they continue writing 1849 Muisc?

Uchida once said that she thought that the Chopin études where much more a test of technique and stamina than of poetic sensibility, I don’t know whether she was right about that.

I think pianists tend to go on and on about the Chopin études because they have to perform them for their peers, they’re piano student fodder.  I think the préludes are more interesting to listen to, though I suspect that the études have been very influential - think of the plethora of piano études in the  20th century, I bet Chopin was the cause of that phenomenon.

Liszt, of course, is not Chopin, Chopin never wrote anything like Liszt’s late music. The are glimmerings of a modernist Chopin, more so than Liszt I’d say, in things like the final movement of the second sonata.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 05:38:24 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline amw

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #344 on: June 17, 2018, 06:04:56 AM »
The Chopin études are written specifically to cover individual technical problems, but are also so difficult as to be impractical for students. (Either Op.10 no.1 or Op.25 no.10, depending on your individual abilities, would be Chopin's most difficult piece.) As such they're more things for piano students to aspire to; you don't usually have piano students actually attempting the études until university/conservatory level. Chopin himself performed selections of them as concert pieces, and instead used the Nocturnes to teach his students, apparently.

Imo there is not much musical interest in something like Op.10 no.2, compared to e.g. Op.10 no.3, but of course the ability to hear a flawless performance of something very difficult is still an appealing prospect regardless of the ~substance.

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Re: Chopin "IT"
« Reply #345 on: June 17, 2018, 07:01:00 AM »

Liszt, of course, is not Chopin, Chopin never wrote anything like Liszt’s late music. The are glimmerings of a modernist Chopin, more so than Liszt I’d say, in things like the final movement of the second sonata.

A 'Late Chopin' phase would've been interesting... Nocturne No.27 from 1876?...

(Either Op.10 no.1 or Op.25 no.10, depending on your individual abilities, would be Chopin's most difficult piece.)


WELL- THAT'S INTERESTING. 10/1 REALLY STRUCK ME... I HAD AN AHA MOMENT...


but of course the ability to hear a flawless performance of something very difficult is still an appealing prospect regardless of the ~substance.

sometimes I just want to hear that frisson!! scintillation ... bubbles... cool stuff...

COOL STUFF IS COOL!!

Cool Stuff SHOULD (also?) be Deep Stuff,... or, in these cases, is the Surface Itself Deepness Incarnate?

Is it Chopin? Is it the fingers of the Living Magical Performers? What is "IT"????


Online Mandryka

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #346 on: June 17, 2018, 10:26:06 AM »


Imo there is not much musical interest in something like Op.10 no.2, compared to e.g. Op.10 no.3,

Here's a 10/3 from Ashkenazy, his first recording made in the USSR.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/oFGonibxzTI" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/oFGonibxzTI</a>


There's quite a nice review of the recording here

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Oct14/Chopin_etudes_MELCD1002108.htm
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:28:12 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #347 on: June 17, 2018, 11:14:13 AM »
The Chopin études are written specifically to cover individual technical problems, but are also so difficult as to be impractical for students. (Either Op.10 no.1 or Op.25 no.10, depending on your individual abilities, would be Chopin's most difficult piece.) As such they're more things for piano students to aspire to; you don't usually have piano students actually attempting the études until university/conservatory level. Chopin himself performed selections of them as concert pieces, and instead used the Nocturnes to teach his students, apparently.

Imo there is not much musical interest in something like Op.10 no.2, compared to e.g. Op.10 no.3, but of course the ability to hear a flawless performance of something very difficult is still an appealing prospect regardless of the ~substance.
The amazing part is they don't SOUND like etudes, more like miniature pieces.

I remember one of my daughter's piano teachers who WAS a conservatory student in piano performance used to practice Op 10 No 12 right before my daughter's class. I didn't know the piece (yeah where have I been right?) and I remember dear lord all these notes how does she keep track of them let alone play them !

Offline Madiel

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #348 on: June 17, 2018, 09:31:51 PM »
The musical interest of them varies in my opinion. Some of them wear their technical side too obviously to be great pieces of music.

Op.10 no.12 is, believe it or not, one of the more manageable ones if you know what you're doing and one that I managed to learn. More than anything it's about conservation of energy, and shaping the piece musically is the way to do it. If you go hell for leather your left arm will give out before you reach the end.
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Offline amw

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #349 on: June 17, 2018, 09:54:00 PM »
I learned Op.10 no.12 ages ago but have honestly forgotten most of it. It is certainly written more explicitly as a concert piece, compared to op.10 no.11, which I also learned and which is not nearly as musically interesting (though more valuable as an etude, at least for me and my hand size).

Op.10 no.12 is one of the only études that really focuses on the left hand, basically a much easier version of the hand-shifting in Op.10 no.1; the popularity of the Godowsky studies on the Chopin études is that they develop the left hand much more significantly than Chopin tried to. When I looked into using the Chopin études as the basis for teaching myself piano technique, I figured I'd have to supplement with the Godowsky versions of Op.10 no.2 and Op.25 no.6 at minimum.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #350 on: June 18, 2018, 12:12:27 AM »
Uchida once said that she thought that the Chopin études where much more a test of technique and stamina than of poetic sensibility, I don’t know whether she was right about that.

Cortot would have disagreed with her. It is interesting to use his edition of the études and listen how he interpreted them. He usually gets more music out of them than most pianists.

Liszt, of course, is not Chopin, Chopin never wrote anything like Liszt’s late music. The are glimmerings of a modernist Chopin, more so than Liszt I’d say, in things like the final movement of the second sonata.

Chopin seemed to be in a new phase with his 3rd piano sonata, a return to form perhaps, rather than written out improvisations at times, not to denigrate them, of course.  I played Chopin all my life, in fact was the main incentive to play the piano in the first place, besides having heard some of Beethoven's music. As much as I value his works that I also learned like the Fantasie, the Ballades, etc., there is not the kind of actual development of material that Liszt was able to accomplish.
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Offline Madiel

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #351 on: June 18, 2018, 01:20:08 AM »
there is not the kind of actual development of material that Liszt was able to accomplish.

Who says Chopin was attempting to accomplish the same things?
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #352 on: June 18, 2018, 01:52:01 AM »
Who says Chopin was attempting to accomplish the same things?

No one, but don't call the repetitions of the same theme 3x in different keys in the Fantasie, or the thinly disguised variations fot the 4th Ballade for instance, as actual development of material.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #353 on: June 18, 2018, 04:04:27 AM »


. . . than written out improvisations at times, not to denigrate them, of course. 

I can see where you’re coming from with the fourth movement of the second sonata. It’s presumably totally unlike anything else before or after.
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Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #354 on: June 18, 2018, 09:35:19 AM »
The musical interest of them varies in my opinion. Some of them wear their technical side too obviously to be great pieces of music.

Op.10 no.12 is, believe it or not, one of the more manageable ones if you know what you're doing and one that I managed to learn. More than anything it's about conservation of energy, and shaping the piece musically is the way to do it. If you go hell for leather your left arm will give out before you reach the end.
I think a lot of people certainly do try to hit the opening chord as loud as they can which is not what Chopin wrote. Had Chopin wanted a 'fff' he would have written one. If you play as loud as you can to start by the time Chopin indicates a crescendo it measure 7 you have nowhere to go basically.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #355 on: June 18, 2018, 10:15:07 AM »

I played Chopin all my life, in fact was the main incentive to play the piano in the first place, besides having heard some of Beethoven's music. As much as I value his works that I also learned like the Fantasie, the Ballades, etc., there is not the kind of actual development of material that Liszt was able to accomplish.

Chopin and Liszt are galaxies apart. Their upbringing, their lives, their personalities, their aesthetics --- everything separates them. Even filing them both under "Romanticism" is rather problematic.


No one, but don't call the repetitions of the same theme 3x in different keys in the Fantasie, or the thinly disguised variations fot the 4th Ballade for instance, as actual development of material.

Why should "development" be the be-all and end-all of music? I am reminded of Debussy's famous remark on development: "Ah, the development section begins! Good, now I can get out and smoke a cigarette!"
"The score is not a bible, and I am never afraid to dare. The music is behind those dots." - Vladimir Horowitz

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #356 on: June 21, 2018, 03:22:36 AM »
Chopin and Liszt are galaxies apart. Their upbringing, their lives, their personalities, their aesthetics --- everything separates them. Even filing them both under "Romanticism" is rather problematic.

True

Why should "development" be the be-all and end-all of music? I am reminded of Debussy's famous remark on development: "Ah, the development section begins! Good, now I can get out and smoke a cigarette!"

Who said that? Development is transformation of material, very useful in sustaining interest over long stretches of time. Brahms was a master of it, maybe the reason he wrote symphonies and some other composers didn't (talking about the Romantic period), not to denigrate them in any way.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #357 on: June 21, 2018, 05:21:54 AM »
Who said that?

I was under the impression that you faulted Chopin for not developping his material the way Liszt did. While true, it bears zero relevance to the intrinsic quality of the music.
"The score is not a bible, and I am never afraid to dare. The music is behind those dots." - Vladimir Horowitz

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Chopin
« Reply #358 on: June 21, 2018, 07:02:50 AM »
I was under the impression that you faulted Chopin for not developping his material the way Liszt did. While true, it bears zero relevance to the intrinsic quality of the music.

Chopin was one of the main reasons I wanted to play the piano. I also told students that a pianist should know most, if not all, of his works. Valued by Schenker, his music continues to remain an enigma to me. more so as I get older.

I was really fascinated over the years trying to figure what was going on in most of his work view of the scarcity of conventional development of motives. Well, how does he do it? I found some patterns that perhaps lesser composers would not get away with as well. One is a kind of revving up as in the "Minute" Waltz, like winding up a spring and then taking off. This device can be seen in his other compositions.

There is also the improvisatory aspect that should not be ignored in many of his compositions, particularly the Mazurkas.

Another technique (if it can be called that) or habit are strings of applied dominants. Just an off the top example, the 2nd theme in the 1st Ballade. The first motive of the 4th Ballade essentially does not change its profile in spite of being placed into increasingly complex settings, in the spirit of an improvisation.

I adored the Fantasie, played it in concert, even for Gyorgy Sandor in a masterclass many years ago. One of my students played it a few years ago in a concert and I saw it with different eyes. Well, what is really happening, when the main section is repeated 3x in different keys? Does it work? In some strange way it does.

I do believe with certain writers on Chopin that his later period showed a different course. The Polonaise-Fantasie that I am currently working on and breaking my head over is really different than anything he wrote but of course has the opening set in various keys without change in profile. Well, how does one manage that??? The B minor Sonata has an actual development section. He may have been going down the conventional route in the latter part of his life while integrating everything from before. It is a pity as with Schubert that we will never know where the road would have led him.
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