Author Topic: Beethoven Missa Solemnis  (Read 34529 times)

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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2008, 04:12:15 PM »
As for budget, you know the Missa was recently remastered and they are asking $18.00 for it new.   :P

Amazon has it for a fair price.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline knight66

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2008, 03:47:21 AM »
That makes two of us. Missa Solemnis and late String Quartets are the best of Beethoven to me.
I have this version (I think it's pretty good):



Sorry, but this version falls short. When following through with the score, the balance pretty much excludes the choral bases most of the time. I got rid of it. I have written at some length on this piece, but cannot track my posts down at the moment.

Mike
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Offline knight66

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2008, 03:53:11 AM »
I'm only familiar with the Gardiner version, which I am hugely satisfied with, to the point I've never considered the need for another version...I'm surprised there are many who think little of it.  What the hey?

(So much so that I was going to head off to pick up his reading of Haydn's Creation after work today...)

Oh, it has virtues; but the first movements need to fly, not to feel like a well drilled machine. I know this piece fairly well. It yields a lot to the sheer sweat and effort Beethoven stitches into it. If it sounds super efficient and with little physical input, then a key mystery of the piece is frankly missing.

I don't know if a single performance I could suggest encompasses all that I look for in the piece; perhaps no such exists. It is protean and it does yield to a certain range of approaches; but any relatively bloodless account will certainly not stay on my shelves for long.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
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Offline edward

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2008, 06:31:03 AM »
I think I have much the same reaction to Gardiner's. Technically excellent, and, in general, I like the tempi he chooses--yet for me everything is just too inflexible: the music needs to breathe and it doesn't. This recording (my only one for several years) kept me from enjoying the work till I got Zinman, who despite all of his flaws at least gave me a sense of joy to the music that I'd entirely missed before.

I do like the Giulini (though it seems to me to be a very idiosyncratic view of the work) but I definitely need more Missas.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2008, 07:00:04 AM »
Sorry, but this version falls short. When following through with the score, the balance pretty much excludes the choral bases most of the time. I got rid of it. I have written at some length on this piece, but cannot track my posts down at the moment.

Mike

I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them...  :P
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mn dave

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2008, 07:03:04 AM »
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them...  :P

Good one.

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2008, 07:35:34 AM »
Apart from Bernstein's, the only one I like enough to be wholly content with is the Jochum Concertgebouw (Philips -nla alas :P). Both have that combination of propulsion and expansion that is very hard to achieve. That's why IMO Gardiner's falls short: it's rigid and never eases into the awe, contemplation and collectedness that are just as important as speed and exuberance. Exultation and exaltation can be achieved by a variety of tempos, even slow ones. But for those who like a 70 minute Missa, Gielen's is very, very good.

Offline knight66

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2008, 07:37:45 AM »
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them...  :P



I have no idea why you say this about yourself. But you said it.

Mike
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I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2008, 08:25:10 AM »
I have no idea why you say this about yourself. But you said it.

Mike


I say it because I don't feel my CDs fall short. Or are you suggesting it's you who are wrong?


« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 12:27:17 PM by knight »
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2008, 08:34:13 AM »
Apart from Bernstein's, the only one I like enough to be wholly content with is the Jochum Concertgebouw (Philips -nla alas :P).

Agreed, Jochum's version rattles the soul.

BTW, for anyone interested in the Jochum, ArkivMusic now has it as part of their On Demand library.



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2008, 08:43:37 AM »
At least Arkiv Music has reissued it. Not super-cheap though.



Just noticed this. Thanks rubio!



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline The new erato

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2008, 08:47:49 AM »
I suppose most of my CDs fall short but luckily I am stupid enough to be happy with them...  :P
Stupidity is good. It may even make you vice president.

Offline adamdavid80

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2008, 08:58:05 AM »
Stupidity is good. It may even make you vice president.

You know, is it really necessary to make fun of Joe Biden like this?
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Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2008, 09:11:56 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bernstein's NYPO version. I don't know the later one myself, and I always tend to prefer Lenny Early to Lenny Late - where at worst he could become a turgid, self-important caricature of himself. Comparisons between the two Bernsteins, anyone?

Meanwhile, I'll give the Gardiner another try today and see how it strikes me now.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2008, 09:13:59 AM »
As far as HIP versions, I have Herreweghe's, which certainly is good but falls a bit short in terms of transcendence.

To me this is where Jochum has the edge (haven't heard Bernstein's DG, yet). Jochum literally mines the score with the patience and skill of an old hand - and unearths a wealth of beauty.

The intimacy is startling and the range of color is amazing.

Setting aside issues of performance practice, this is a version of the work to shake the soul.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2008, 11:07:30 AM »
Stupidity is good. It may even make you vice president.

Only if you are american. I am not.  :P
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Offline knight66

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2008, 12:28:48 PM »

I say it because I don't feel my CDs fall short. Or are you suggesting it's you who are wrong?




Sorry, I tried to quote your post 71db, but I must have clicked on amend, it is back to haow it was, so following on from your comment.....

Possibly best you just to stick to what you actually mean and forget the double think. I am not commenting on your thought processes; but on the CDs and they, following with the score, are audibly defective. Stay happy with them by all means.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2008, 12:47:23 PM »
...but on the CDs and they, following with the score, are audibly defective.

Hard to believe that because I find the sonics on this CD very good.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
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Offline knight66

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2008, 12:55:36 PM »
I am not asking you to believe it; but then if you don't follow it with the score, how can you tell just how good or not the sonics are? But that is old, cold ground. As I said, stay happy.

Mike
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Beethoven Missa Solemnis
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2008, 01:03:08 PM »
I am not asking you to believe it; but then if you don't follow it with the score, how can you tell just how good or not the sonics are? But that is old, cold ground. As I said, stay happy.

Mike

I have never followed anything with the score. I have never in my life even seen a score! I evalute the sound quality the way acoustics engineers do.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page