Author Topic: Bach Goldberg Variations  (Read 48857 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 16216
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #220 on: December 25, 2016, 11:53:37 AM »
Nothing against slow in principle, but often when it is played slowly I get the feeling of wanting a more well-defined dance rhythm, at least. Some of the variations come across as a bit lumbering. I guess I'm talking less about speed and more about lightness.

I'll give Asperen a go. I definitely enjoy his WTC. Egarr's still on the list for when I have the 85 minutes to spare <_<

I might have a few suggestions to confuse you..... :D

Ottavio Dantone  (Italian Decca) and wild(card) Fabio Bonizzoni (Glossa).

Q

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7330
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #221 on: December 25, 2016, 12:25:57 PM »
This isn't dance. It's just perverse to demand dancable rhythms.

Amen.

Quote from: Mandryka
What I appreciate about Egarr's is:

1 The sense of improvisation
2 The variety, each variation has its own personality
3 The general style which seems to almost hark back to the 15th century
4 The harpsichord sound, and the tuning
5 The originality, the challenge of the new ideas

I have resisted Egarr's Goldbergs until now, but it seems as if I need to get them. :)

I think Gould 1 had a major influence on expectations of speed, an influence on harpsichordist as much as pianists. The way he bolts out the first variation for example has become a sort of established performance practice since.

I doubt that Gould has been the benchmark for that many harpsichorsdists who have chosen a fast pace for the Goldbergs or anything else by Bach.  Already Walcha played some of the variations very fast, and he was maybe even more his own than Gould.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4080
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #222 on: December 25, 2016, 09:29:59 PM »
By the way, people who come to this from a piano background often want speed because of the influence of Glen Gould, who really bolted out of the stables in the first variation in 1955. There's no reason to play it like that.
I've heard Gould but didn't get along with it much. Possibly for the same reasons I didn't enjoy Walcha, actually. I'm from a piano background, but András Schiff (2001).

Listened to about half of Asperen and it does seem more or less like what I was looking for. Egarr's next tho. Can't trial Dantone without committing an act of immoral and reprehensible piracy (who am I kidding, I just don't feel like waiting for an active seeder <_<) but also taken under consideration.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 11829
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #223 on: December 25, 2016, 10:18:34 PM »

What I appreciate about Egarr's is:

1 The sense of improvisation
2 The variety, each variation has its own personality
3 The general style which seems to almost hark back to the 15th century
4 The harpsichord sound, and the tuning
5 The originality, the challenge of the new ideas


Should have 16th century, or maybe 17th!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 10:42:44 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline stingo

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 995
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #224 on: December 26, 2016, 09:25:08 AM »
I don't know if Kimiko Ishizaka's rendition was mentioned but I like it.

Offline Toccata&Fugue

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
  • Location: Davis, CA
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #225 on: December 26, 2016, 09:47:52 AM »
While I prefer it on the piano, this version is quite good. Excellent sound, too.


Offline Marc

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3759
  • Sine Cerere et Bach friget Venus
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #226 on: December 27, 2016, 09:07:56 AM »
What do the connaisseurs think of Virginia Black's recording on the former Collins label?
I always feel refreshed after listening to this one.

(And, for those interested: I'm quite sure she takes every repeat.)



https://www.amazon.com/J-s-Bach-Goldberg-Variations-Virginia/dp/B000088NUC/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Help support the GMG Classical Music Forum by purchasing from Amazon using this link, this link, or this link

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4080
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #227 on: December 27, 2016, 03:17:14 PM »
Egarr today

+
Instrument
Tuning
very introspective, playing as though for himself alone
good use of ornaments
high quality rubato, A+
variation 25 is an infinite abyss in the guise of an opera seria cavatina

-
it doesn't sound like he is having any fun—not as heavy as I thought, but extremely serious, like the fate of the world depends on the Quodlibet
feels like there is very little contrast between the variations
sense of improvisation maybe goes too far, in that i don't feel like he sets out a large-scale trajectory from aria to da capo

It's perfectly good but I can't exactly put it in the top tier of Goldbergs. To be fair this applies for me with most everything Egarr has recorded. :/

subjective ofc.

A kind individual who will remain unnamed for legal reasons has supplied a copy of the Dantone recording so that's up next on the agenda.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 11829
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #228 on: December 27, 2016, 11:20:01 PM »
Egarr today


-
it doesn't sound like he is having any fun—not as heavy as I thought, but extremely serious, like the fate of the world depends on the Quodlibet
feels like there is very little contrast between the variations
sense of improvisation maybe goes too far, in that i don't feel like he sets out a large-scale trajectory from aria to da capo



I don't agree about the thought that there's little contrast, I agree that he plays it like a sequence of etudes.

By the way the sound on spotify is not anywhere near as good as the sound on the CD.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4080
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #229 on: December 28, 2016, 03:48:29 AM »
Not even etudes, he plays it like it's the Sonatas and Interludes. Or Musica Callada. I guess that's what I mean by lack of contrast.

The music was streamed through my computer speakers, which are the great equalizer in terms of sound quality, but I'm guessing it's good. Harmonia Mundi after all.

Offline bioluminescentsquid

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 203
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #230 on: February 19, 2017, 10:01:22 PM »
Found this in a record shop, and since it was cheap (4 dollars),  and I generally like Rousset, I decided to see how this sounded.



Not very impressed, I must say. Bland and without much features, and a bit superficial (some movements, like the Arias, 21, or the "black pearl" are just too fast for my taste. Hopefully it opens up with a few more listens, but this is my 5th spin, and it hasn't worked much magic yet.

It seems like Rousset was aiming for "lyrical," but it, unlike e.g. Rannou, misses the mark.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 10:05:02 PM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline Toccata&Fugue

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
  • Location: Davis, CA
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #231 on: February 25, 2017, 10:39:11 AM »
This one played on the piano is wonderful, too.


Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 16216
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #232 on: February 27, 2017, 02:20:37 PM »
Found this in a record shop, and since it was cheap (4 dollars),  and I generally like Rousset, I decided to see how this sounded.



Not very impressed, I must say. Bland and without much features, and a bit superficial (some movements, like the Arias, 21, or the "black pearl" are just too fast for my taste. Hopefully it opens up with a few more listens, but this is my 5th spin, and it hasn't worked much magic yet.

It seems like Rousset was aiming for "lyrical," but it, unlike e.g. Rannou, misses the mark.

I like it! :) A "young man's" Golbergs for sure - love to hear his 2nd take any time soon...I hope...

Q

Offline bioluminescentsquid

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 203
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #233 on: February 27, 2017, 03:33:41 PM »
I like it! :) A "young man's" Golbergs for sure - love to hear his 2nd take any time soon...I hope...

Q
Tell me why you like it. I'm still trying to get myself to like it.

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 16216
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #234 on: February 28, 2017, 11:15:04 PM »
Tell me why you like it. I'm still trying to get myself to like it.

I wouldn't dare or want to try to talk you into it!   :D If it doesn't click, it doesn't click...

Rousset is a speeder, always has been. Though he seems to mellow/slow down now he is getter older...
The most obvious case in point are his recordings of the French and English Suites on Ambroisie, which made fellow harpsichordist Peter Watchorn remark (approx.): "Thank you, Mr. Rousset. For demonstrating how fast these pieces can be played."
I guess for Rousset' genius musical brain which has thoroughly absorbed the music, the speed feels completely natural.
For us ordinary mortal souls,  keeping up with the complexity of the music is a challenge at such speeds. Being familiar with the music certainly helps, though it always takes me a few minutes adapt.

But being able to keep up doesn’t account for taste and doesn't mean you like it. :)
For me the rewards are the liveliness, the virtuosity and elegance, the way he builds tension, thh brillisnt ornamentations. And it is not all blazing virtuosity that catches the eye: Rousset is a great analyser and offers profundity as well. Though not often the "meditative" kind, some tend to associate with Bach.
Rousset shows Bach the virtuosic musical genius, which in my mind he was  - particularly behind the keyboard.

A more moderated approach in the same mould would be Céline Frisch (Alpha), for instance  (my knowledge of what is out there is getting outdated...)
Pretty recording...

Q
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:44:18 PM by Que »

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 16216
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #235 on: February 28, 2017, 11:20:23 PM »
Anyway...I just spottted this...

Presumably a reissue from the Bach Edition? Any good? :)


Q

Offline Marc

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3759
  • Sine Cerere et Bach friget Venus
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #236 on: March 01, 2017, 12:48:49 AM »
Anyway...I just spottted this...

Presumably a reissue from the Bach Edition? Any good? :)


Q

This one is recorded in 2015, so it's a new release.
It's his 3rd recording of BWV 988, after Erasmus 1991 and Brilliant 1999 (for the Bach Edition).
Help support the GMG Classical Music Forum by purchasing from Amazon using this link, this link, or this link

Offline bioluminescentsquid

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 203
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #237 on: March 01, 2017, 04:04:43 AM »
I wouldn't dare or want to try to talk you into it!   :D If it doesn't click, it doesn't click...

Rousset is a speeder, always has been. Though he seems to mellow/slow down now he is getter older...
The most obvious case in point are his recordings of the French and English Suites on Ambroisie, which made fellow harpsichordist Peter Watchorn remark (approx.): "Thank you, Mr. Rousset. For demonstrating how fast these pieces can be played."
I guess for Rousset' genius musical brain which has thoroughly absorbed the music, the speed feels completely natural.
For us ordinary mortal souls,  keeping up with the complexity of the music is a challenge at such speeds. Being familiar with the music certainly helps, though it always takes me a few minutes adapt.

But being able to keep up doesn’t account for taste and doesn't mean you like it. :)
For me the rewards are the liveliness, the virtuosity and elegance, the way he builds tension, thh brillisnt ornamentations. And it is not all blazing virtuosity that catches the eye: Rousset is a great analyser and offers profundity as well. Though not often the "meditative" kind, some tend to associate with Bach.
Rousset shows Bach the virtuosic musical genius, which in my mind he was  - particularly behind the keyboard.

A more moderated approach in the same mould would be Céline Frisch (Alpha), for instance  (my knowledge of what is out there is getting outdated...)
Pretty recording...

Q

This is my 7th spin, and I think I'm starting to get it....?

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7330
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #238 on: March 01, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »
I wouldn't dare or want to try to talk you into it!   :D If it doesn't click, it doesn't click...

Rousset is a speeder, always has been. Though he seems to mellow/slow down now he is getter older...
The most obvious case in point are his recordings of the French and English Suites on Ambroisie, which made fellow harpsichordist Peter Watchorn remark (approx.): "Thank you, Mr. Rousset. For demonstrating how fast these pieces can be played."
I guess for Rousset' genius musical brain which has thoroughly absorbed the music, the speed feels completely natural.
For us ordinary mortal souls,  keeping up with the complexity of the music is a challenge at such speeds. Being familiar with the music certainly helps, though it always takes me a few minutes adapt.

But being able to keep up doesn’t account for taste and doesn't mean you like it. :)
For me the rewards are the liveliness, the virtuosity and elegance, the way he builds tension, thh brillisnt ornamentations. And it is not all blazing virtuosity that catches the eye: Rousset is a great analyser and offers profundity as well. Though not often the "meditative" kind, some tend to associate with Bach.
Rousset shows Bach the virtuosic musical genius, which in my mind he was  - particularly behind the keyboard.

A more moderated approach in the same mould would be Céline Frisch (Alpha), for instance  (my knowledge of what is out there is getting outdated...)
Pretty recording...

Q

Great post, Que.  :)
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 11829
Re: Bach Goldberg Variations
« Reply #239 on: May 30, 2017, 01:55:23 AM »


Richard Lester plays the Goldberg Variations, with gentility, sobriety and care. He takes every repeat identically. Long singing phrasing. My feeling is that he is at pains to bring out the large scale structure of the set. And my impression is that what he's doing is extremely beautiful in a galant way. Sweet small (8') German style harpsichord (Colin Booth after Johann Christoph Fleischer in Berlin.) This may well be a recording which will repay repeated listening.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 02:10:21 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen