Author Topic: Bach's Bungalow  (Read 117405 times)

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Online Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #600 on: April 28, 2019, 06:55:23 AM »
Yes but he has pleaded his mea culpa

Quote
When performing these trio sonatas in
concert, I am sometimes given to suggesting
to the audience that the music is too good to
be left only to organists; but, while it might
be true that they deserve a wider public, it is
nevertheless sobering to remember that what
here takes four players to realise, originally is
left to but a single musician.
I originally transcribed BWV 529 for
violin, oboe, viola da gamba and continuo
while I was studying in Salzburg in 1981,
and some aspects of that more difficult
arrangement (to suit the oboe) remain in the
present version for two violins, particularly
the transposition to D major. The basic idea of generally keeping the tessitura of the
original by giving the viol (in these
performances, specifically a viola da gamba)
some solos remains throughout the
arrangements, though it has been developed
further to include two entire movements
where the viol takes one of the upper lines:
the Adagio of BWV 525 (the violin part
transposed down an octave) and the first
movement of BWV 528.
Each of the trio sonatas presented
challenges very different from the others, and
different solutions were found: for example,
several movements were left intact with the
viol staying on its leash (as it were) in the
bass department: the first and third
movements of BWV 525, the second
movement of BWV 526, the last movement
of BWV 529 and the last movement of
BWV 530. The Lente of BWV 530, florid
and intricate as it is, seemed particularly
suited to the sort of texture found in Bach’s
sonatas for violin and harpsichord, where the
harpsichord takes one of the upper voices
and its left hand the bass. Bach took the first
movement of BWV 528 from a cantata,
originally for oboe d’amore and viola da
gamba, so it was enough to replace the oboe
with violin. BWV 525 was transposed from
E flat major, which did not suit the strings so well, to F major, which did. The concertolike opening Vivace of BWV 530 is given the
most extensive treatment of all: there are
three passages where the typical keyboard
figuration of the original would not have
worked well on the violins (incidentally, it is
fascinating to see how Bach develops these
three seemingly similar passages); so the
harpsichord takes over at these points and we
have added the sort of clashing and resolving
violin lines that often are found in his
harpsichord concertos.
I hope that we have achieved sufficient
variety in our instrumentations for the
enjoyment of listeners and players alike,
though I cannot escape the feeling that one
of my motives for mixing it up like this was
selfishly to grab some of the wonderful lines
of the upper parts for myself. I hope Bach
and the violins will forgive me

It's the relative reticence of the interpretations which I like.
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Offline milk

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #601 on: April 28, 2019, 06:56:12 AM »
How about this one -- no wind instruments, English gentlemanly performances, rather lyrical, fluid.



or if you want a splash of colour then maybe this



I'd like to hear this.


My favorite is Power Biggs on pedal harpsichord (CBS/Sony) which I used to prefer to the organ recordings, now I also like the organ but I still love Power Biggs especially in the faster movements.
I have most the six also in chamber arrangements but as fillers scattered over several discs and not from one ensemble and such arrangements are not my preference.
Biggs is a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 07:00:42 AM by milk »

Online Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #602 on: April 28, 2019, 11:11:02 AM »
I'd like to hear this. .

I think you will enjoy this more



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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #603 on: April 29, 2019, 04:03:06 AM »
Re: Bach's trio sonatas BWV 525-530
What are some favorite transcriptions of any kind? What say ye?

Transcription being anything not on the organ? Or not on the keyboard?

I had BWV 525 arranged for Viennese "Schrammelmusik" (violins & accordion; they might well have added the guitar that's traditionally part of it) and played in the vineyard at our wedding. That might be my favorite therefore. :p

But more usefully (if at all): I have the Purcell Quartet (Chandos), which I like. And the Brook Street Band (Avie?) which I'm not as fond of... although it is certainly fine. Fewer than I would have thought I had...


Online Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #604 on: April 29, 2019, 06:05:48 AM »
Transcription being anything not on the organ? Or not on the keyboard?



Presumably not on 2  keyboards with pedal: organ or pedal harpsichord. Premont, I think, thinks that the keyboard score is in fact a transcription of a now lost set of chamber piece for a couple of melody instruments and a harpsichord, but I can’t recall how he supports the idea (if indeed he holds to that idea, I could be mistaken)

There is by the way there’s a pedal harpsichord rendition of a couple of them here



And I’ll mention that I just now started to listen to this, it seems rather good

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Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #605 on: April 29, 2019, 06:59:03 AM »
Re: Bach's trio sonatas BWV 525-530
What are some favorite transcriptions of any kind? What say ye?

This is my absolute favorite. Trio Lezard.



I also have some of the others mentioned. What I did not like about the others is that they tried to reverse engineer the works into tradition trio sonatas. What is remarkable about the original works is that they consist of three voices, no continuo filling out the harmony.

The Trio Lezard transforms them into trios for three wind instruments. You get Bach's original conception, but with the clarity of a wind ensemble, rather than the resonance of a pipe organ.

I'm not sure if it is still in print. It should be.

Online Jo498

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #606 on: April 29, 2019, 07:38:58 AM »
The Power Biggs has very dry and totally transparent sound. There also some rather clear recordings on smaller? organs, e.g. John Butt/harmonia mundi. I used to like Power Biggs more than organ, now that I am more familar with the organ sound, I appreciate the more colorful possibilities.
The soundbits of Trio Lezard sound quite nice, though.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #607 on: April 29, 2019, 07:46:24 AM »
The Power Biggs has very dry and totally transparent sound. There also some rather clear recordings on smaller? organs, e.g. John Butt/harmonia mundi. I used to like Power Biggs more than organ, now that I am more familar with the organ sound, I appreciate the more colorful possibilities.
The soundbits of Trio Lezard sound quite nice, though.

I still consider performance on organ to be primary.  I like Alain's recording from the third Erato cycle, and Johannsen.



Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #608 on: April 29, 2019, 08:14:45 AM »

The Trio Lezard transforms them into trios for three wind instruments. You get Bach's original conception, but with the clarity of a wind ensemble, rather than the resonance of a pipe organ.

I'm not sure if it is still in print. It should be.

Interesting. Up on my wishlist it goes. And certainly not out of print.

Offline milk

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #609 on: May 03, 2019, 04:30:12 AM »
Does anyone know what is the extent to which the flute sonatas have been transcribed for other instruments? I see there's maybe some wind stuff. Have they been done for Gamba or other instruments? Also for the Gamba suites, does anyone think they've been successful on the cello? I know it's been done quite a bit. 

Online Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #610 on: May 03, 2019, 05:05:40 AM »
Anner Bylsma made a transcription of the solo flute sonata BWV 1013 here. I have a friend who thinks it represents a major moment in the reception history of baroque cello music, because of the articulation, which my friend says is more like recitative than anything that had been tried before. More like sprechgesang than aria. See what you think. (I just put it on while typing this and it crossed my mind that the performance has some of the knottiness of Sainte Colombe!)



As far as playing the gamba sonatas on cello, I remember thinking that there were good things in Isserlis/Egarr, and in Hess/Egarr. There's also this -- I've never explored it much, somehow it hasn't captured my imagination, but the problem may well be with me

« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 05:18:04 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Jo498

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #611 on: May 03, 2019, 06:33:23 AM »
Of course there are plenty of modern instrument recordings of the gamba sonatas for 'cello.

As for transcriptions there are more likely to be many towards flute and recorder. Certainly of the organ trio sonatas. There is also the version of one of the gamba for two flutes and I think another one with flute that might be by CPE or a collaboration of father and son.

I cannot help with transcriptions of the flute sonatas, though. But virtually everything by Bach has been transcribed for all kinds of combinations of instruments. (I used to play two part inventions for two clarinets with my teacher). Again, because of the relatively smaller repertoire for winds, there are more transcriptions from strings or keyboard to winds than vice versa, I think.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #612 on: May 03, 2019, 09:36:25 AM »
Yes but he has pleaded his mea culpa

His confessions do not make the arrangement better. Now he is so focused upon the viola da gamba, I wonder why he didn't arrange the trio sonatas in the vein of Buxtehudes trio sonatas in a consistent arrangement for violin, viola da gamba and harpsichord.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #613 on: May 03, 2019, 09:56:00 AM »
Presumably not on 2  keyboards with pedal: organ or pedal harpsichord. Premont, I think, thinks that the keyboard score is in fact a transcription of a now lost set of chamber piece for a couple of melody instruments and a harpsichord, but I can’t recall how he supports the idea (if indeed he holds to that idea, I could be mistaken)

Yes, I think most of the movements in the organ trio sonatas in the first hand were conceived as chamber music (concerto or sonata da camera).(Musicologists however think that BWV 530 was originally composed as an organ piece, maybe as an "Italian Concerto" for organ).

What makes me think so, is the chamber-music-like interplay of the two upper voices and the basso continuo style of the pedal voice. And the fact that Bach invented the genre. He also invented the harpsichord concerto by arranging his own violin concertos for harpsichord. And in the case of BWV 528,I we have an earlier version for oboe, gamba and continuo. Some musicologists think, that the compass of the upper parts in the organ trio sonatas does not apply to any melody instrument, but of course Bach transposed and arranged the original score to fit the demands of the organ.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:19:55 AM by (: premont :) »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #614 on: May 03, 2019, 10:07:20 AM »
Does anyone know what is the extent to which the flute sonatas have been transcribed for other instruments? I see there's maybe some wind stuff. Have they been done for Gamba or other instruments? Also for the Gamba suites, does anyone think they've been successful on the cello? I know it's been done quite a bit.

I do not know many arrangements of the sonatas for flute and harpsichord. Ingo Goritzki has made two recordings of the b-minor sonata using oboe. I do not consider versions for recorder true arrangements.

The partita for solo flute has on the other hand had many different arrangements. Harpsichord (Evans), cello (Bylsma, Balazs Mate, Rohmann, Zeuthen) and violin (Podger, Gatti). I have not yet heard all of these.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:15:27 AM by (: premont :) »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #615 on: May 03, 2019, 10:08:53 AM »
There is also the version of one of the gamba for two flutes

This is Bach's own transcription.
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #616 on: May 03, 2019, 10:14:45 AM »
As far as playing the gamba sonatas on cello, I remember thinking that there were good things in Isserlis/Egarr, and in Hess/Egarr. There's also this -- I've never explored it much, somehow it hasn't captured my imagination, but the problem may well be with me

I do not see the point of playing the gamba/harpsicord sonatas on cello/harpsichord. The internal balance is disturbed, a balance which already is problematic, because the gamba plays the lower of the two upper voices. To some degree the balance is better in Bylsma's cello recording of these sonatas with van Asperen on organ.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Online Jo498

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #617 on: May 03, 2019, 11:13:49 AM »
This is Bach's own transcription.
Sure, I did not mean to imply otherwise.

As I said, I am usually for original versions anyway and prefer the keyboard versions of the trios. Nevertheless I acquired the following discs I mention for those interested without evaluation

Camerata Köln on cpo with the gamba sonatas "beefed up" by violin in the g minor (this close to the Buxtehude combo), recorder in the D major and flute in the G major. Plus the organ sonatas 525 for flute, violin, bc and 527 for recorder, violon, bc.

Hantai & amis with 525, 529+530 for recorder, violin, bc. (only in the naive Hantai box, otherwise oop).

Freiburger Barocksolisten (still modern instruments, rec. 1984, not sure if any overlap with the later Freiburg HIP ensembles) on Christophorus CHE 0053-2) with reconstructions of a C major (BWV 1027 + 1039), flute, viola, bc, one in b minor (BWV 178,104,92, 36) for 2 oboe d'amore, bc, on a minor (BWV 1030/B) for oboe and cembalo obbligato and a g minor (BWV 76 and 528) for Oboe, Viola bc
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Online Mandryka

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Re: Bach's Bungalow
« Reply #618 on: May 03, 2019, 12:19:50 PM »
I do not see the point of playing the gamba/harpsicord sonatas on cello/harpsichord. The internal balance is disturbed, a balance which already is problematic, because the gamba plays the lower of the two upper voices. To some degree the balance is better in Bylsma's cello recording of these sonatas with van Asperen on organ.

Yes, it's just that I thought that Isserlis/Egarr was slightly less offensive in this respect, that was about five years ago, I've not heard the recording since.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 12:26:28 PM by Mandryka »
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