Author Topic: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)  (Read 72484 times)

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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #480 on: February 08, 2018, 10:04:02 AM »
Haitink conducting 'Et Exspecto...' with the CRO (Philips), wow, day and night with Boulez. What a cool sound!


HEY GUYS- if you've soured on Messiaen, come back in 3-4 years and try again, it's working for me!
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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) CANTEYODJAYA
« Reply #481 on: February 08, 2018, 10:23:17 AM »
Who? I couldn't think of anyone when I made my list.

Most take this at @13:30,...

It's such an f'd up sounding piece, so brilliant, and I find it ridiculously infuriating, lol!

But I have Serkin (Koch), who clocks in at 11:57, and it really does impact the opening configuration. However, once the piece gets going, all recordings mush together for me. This work is just sooo out there in terms of its galloping seven legged hippo theme! But, it's so ingenious!

Schleiermacher has a nice Darmstadt Vol.1 programme on MDG (13:33), with typical sweet ambience; there are others with drier, or wetter, sound, depending on your preference. But, to me, the music is sooo...so... you know,... that ANY performance seems to do.

Ridiculous! :P
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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) PRELUDES 1-8
« Reply #482 on: February 12, 2018, 08:36:46 AM »
Well, I guess no one's cuing up for Messiaen at this time but me. :( I feel like alone at the Coney Island boardwalk :'(.


Listening now to Loriod's Preludes on a grey and rainy day... what more needs be said?
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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: EARLY vs LATE
« Reply #483 on: February 12, 2018, 08:50:38 AM »
I remember the Penguin Guide MAKING me buy that Bate 'Nativite' back in the day, which, of course, is now long gone, but now the time has come for me to niggle into Messiaen's Organ Works. The 'Messe du Pentecote', and the 'Livre d'Orgue' strike me as squarely in the Composer's Experimental/Serial phase, and samples have yielded quite intriguing sonorities.

The 'Meditations', also, strike me as Messiaen's "stern God" answer to the late '60s.

'Nativite'and 'Livre SS' I have only perused as of yet, and the earlier pieces seem interesting, all in their own way. I don't recall 'Banquet Celeste' being so wonderfully static...



I'm considering the 'Complete'... and there are a handful of Cycles... the main criticism of Bate's set is the swamping reverb, which many say does somewhat cloud certain intricacies, whilst others like the suspended legato of the ambience. Ericsson seems a bit dry acoustically to me; Latry seems "perfect", but some point out some weaknesses in that set. Messiaen himself probably has mediocre sound; ...


Am I just being ignored or does no one care for Messiaen in 2018? ALIEN NEIL- I can't tell you how much late Xenakis I'm hearing in the brass+piano+percussion works!! The bridge is being built!! ;)
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: EARLY vs LATE
« Reply #484 on: February 12, 2018, 10:43:44 AM »



I'm considering the 'Complete'... and there are a handful of Cycles... the main criticism of Bate's set is the swamping reverb, which many say does somewhat cloud certain intricacies, whilst others like the suspended legato of the ambience. Ericsson seems a bit dry acoustically to me; Latry seems "perfect", but some point out some weaknesses in that set. Messiaen himself probably has mediocre sound; ...


Am I just being ignored or does no one care for Messiaen in 2018? ALIEN NEIL- I can't tell you how much late Xenakis I'm hearing in the brass+piano+percussion works!! The bridge is being built!! ;)

We're reading you.  ;)

For the organ works I have Weir (Collins) & Latry (DG) - and the Warner recordings of Messiaen himself coupled with those that M.C.Alain made.

But to suggest that I can meaningfully recommend one set over the other would be pretentious. I've not heard them recently enough or focused enough to really get into the nitty-gritty of them, I'm afraid.

Offline Maestro267

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #485 on: February 12, 2018, 12:18:47 PM »
I listened to Des Canyons aux Etoiles last night. Fantastic piece. The small string section (compared with more typical orchestra-sized woodwind and brass contingents and Messiaen's substantial percussion section) makes for a fascinating sound world. I also learnt that the descending horn call that occurs in the 3rd, 6th and 12th movements is the bird call of the canyon wren.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #486 on: February 12, 2018, 12:29:21 PM »
I listened to Des Canyons aux Etoiles last night. Fantastic piece. The small string section (compared with more typical orchestra-sized woodwind and brass contingents and Messiaen's substantial percussion section) makes for a fascinating sound world. I also learnt that the descending horn call that occurs in the 3rd, 6th and 12th movements is the bird call of the canyon wren.

I agree with you that the small string ensemble rather than the orchestral version is preferable. 

Online Baron Scarpia

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #487 on: February 12, 2018, 12:57:51 PM »
I agree with you that the small string ensemble rather than the orchestral version is preferable.

Now I'm confused. Messiaen notated the piece for individual string instruments. I never saw mention of a different version of the piece for full string section.

Offline San Antone

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #488 on: February 14, 2018, 05:24:59 AM »
Now I'm confused. Messiaen notated the piece for individual string instruments. I never saw mention of a different version of the piece for full string section.

My mistake.  I listened to it last month and I thought I had read something in the booklet about a different version for chamber group instead of full orchestra ... brain fart.   :-[ 

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #489 on: February 14, 2018, 09:03:35 AM »
My mistake.  I listened to it last month and I thought I had read something in the booklet about a different version for chamber group instead of full orchestra ... brain fart.   :-[

There is a kind of small ensemble within the full orchestra that plays as a chamber group.  Perhaps that's what was being referred to?
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline San Antone

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #490 on: February 14, 2018, 09:13:46 AM »
There is a kind of small ensemble within the full orchestra that plays as a chamber group.  Perhaps that's what was being referred to?

Possibly; all I know for sure is that I liked the version in the Naive box, better than the one in the Warner box 18CDs (now 25CDs).

Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #491 on: February 15, 2018, 07:11:52 AM »
We're reading you.  ;)

For the organ works I have Weir (Collins) & Latry (DG) - and the Warner recordings of Messiaen himself coupled with those that M.C.Alain made.

But to suggest that I can meaningfully recommend one set over the other would be pretentious. I've not heard them recently enough or focused enough to really get into the nitty-gritty of them, I'm afraid.

Well, with Weir/Collins 'Complete' going for $7+sh., the choice was made for me, lol,... but, the consensus falls very kindly in her direction. As much as i'd like to be swamped by Bate's ambience, I'm not sure I need the slow bits taken out to the extreme. Weir seems to have the best overall no-nonsense reviews...

In any case, I will soon have more Messiaen Organ Music than I will know what to do with! Should keep me busy...



WHO ELSE DO WE LIKE IN AVANT-MODERN ORGAN???? It seems a genre none to friendly?... Feldman, Scelsi, Ferneyhough, Berio, Xenakis, Chaynes, ... next to Messiaen, do we have any real "classics" in the field?
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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
« Reply #492 on: February 15, 2018, 07:15:33 AM »
I am LOVING the Labeques 'Visions de l'Amen'! I didn't recall how this piece had such fistfulls of sharp notes shredding,... I can listen to it just fine without the programme... it just seems sooooooooooo Modern coming from the '40s.



THE ONLY WORKS I'M HAVING ISSUES WITH are the piano+brass+percussion works, but, I think that also is the consensus. Other than that, I'm really having a great time with Messiaen this go around! ;)
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #493 on: February 15, 2018, 09:51:17 AM »
WHO ELSE DO WE LIKE IN AVANT-MODERN ORGAN???? It seems a genre none to friendly?... Feldman, Scelsi, Ferneyhough, Berio, Xenakis, Chaynes, ... next to Messiaen, do we have any real "classics" in the field?

Ligeti wrote a few interesting pieces for the instrument, but it seems to have been less than popular with the 20th century avant-garde generally.  Stravinsky and Schoenberg both had reservations about the organ and used it only once each.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #494 on: February 15, 2018, 10:02:56 AM »
WHO ELSE DO WE LIKE IN AVANT-MODERN ORGAN???? It seems a genre none to friendly?... Feldman, Scelsi, Ferneyhough, Berio, Xenakis, Chaynes, ... next to Messiaen, do we have any real "classics" in the field?

Petr Eben. Modern, probably not avant-modern

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #495 on: February 15, 2018, 03:23:42 PM »

WHO ELSE DO WE LIKE IN AVANT-MODERN ORGAN???? It seems a genre none to friendly?... Feldman, Scelsi, Ferneyhough, Berio, Xenakis, Chaynes, ... next to Messiaen, do we have any real "classics" in the field?

Albert Alain.

Offline Joaquimhock

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #496 on: February 16, 2018, 01:43:09 AM »




WHO ELSE DO WE LIKE IN AVANT-MODERN ORGAN???? It seems a genre none to friendly?... Feldman, Scelsi, Ferneyhough, Berio, Xenakis, Chaynes, ... next to Messiaen, do we have any real "classics" in the field?

The tradition of composer-organist is still alive (at least in France) with Thierry Escaich for instance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4HYOyKJ1y4
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Offline ritter

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #497 on: February 16, 2018, 04:22:15 AM »
WHO ELSE DO WE LIKE IN AVANT-MODERN ORGAN???? It seems a genre none to friendly?... Feldman, Scelsi, Ferneyhough, Berio, Xenakis, Chaynes, ... next to Messiaen, do we have any real "classics" in the field?
I'm not into organ music (avantgarde or not), and feel rather close--not surprisingly--to Pierre Boulez's comments on his teacher Messiaen as reported by Gerald McBurney in The Guardian:

"...I was escorting him [i.e. Boulez] to a restaurant. The rest of the company had moved swiftly, but he was walking slowly, tired after rehearsal. Someone had told me on no account to mention Messiaen. So I did, and he immediately laughed, stopped and looked at me like a schoolboy preparing a whoopee cushion for a grownup.

'Ah, Messiaen, he is for me a big problem … [dramatic pause] The religion … [another pause, shrugged shoulders, and louder] The birds … [louder still, hands raised and in tones of pantomimic horror] Aand … my God … the ORGAN!' There was no doubt which of these three shockers was the worst..."
  ;D

Still, for those interested in avantgarde organ music, there's this:


Mostly late Krenek, except for the middle-period Sonata op. 92.


The only piece I know is Cristóbal Halffter's Ricercare from 1981. Haven't listened to it in ages.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 04:33:42 AM by ritter »
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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) ORGAN MUSIC: Weir Rules??
« Reply #498 on: February 17, 2018, 07:07:24 AM »
I'm not into organ music (avantgarde or not), and feel rather close--not surprisingly--to Pierre Boulez's comments on his teacher Messiaen as reported by Gerald McBurney in The Guardian:

"...I was escorting him [i.e. Boulez] to a restaurant. The rest of the company had moved swiftly, but he was walking slowly, tired after rehearsal. Someone had told me on no account to mention Messiaen. So I did, and he immediately laughed, stopped and looked at me like a schoolboy preparing a whoopee cushion for a grownup.

'Ah, Messiaen, he is for me a big problem … [dramatic pause] The religion … [another pause, shrugged shoulders, and louder] The birds … [louder still, hands raised and in tones of pantomimic horror] Aand … my God … the ORGAN!' There was no doubt which of these three shockers was the worst..."
  ;D

Still, for those interested in avantgarde organ music, there's this:


Mostly late Krenek, except for the middle-period Sonata op. 92.


The only piece I know is Cristóbal Halffter's Ricercare from 1981. Haven't listened to it in ages.

Not that Boulez had to conduct any of the organ works, lol, funny story!


Yea, ... the organ,... whatcha gonna do?


However, I have just dipped into the Weir Box,..."dipped" being the operative word. Gonna try the 'Meditations' here before the snow starts...
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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992) QFTEOT
« Reply #499 on: February 17, 2018, 07:10:09 AM »
QFTEOT


I can't seem to get into this as much as I thoughtI would. Of course, it's been decades since I had this around (Northeast/west Chamber??), and I'm listening now to Brunner/Fontenay (Teldec), but I'm just not feeling it, and I think it's the music.Maybe all of those unison runs are getting to me?
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