Author Topic: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread  (Read 67109 times)

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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #460 on: March 11, 2017, 09:34:43 PM »
I saw Bruhns have been discussed several times but not Lubeck.  I find his compositions quite penetrating while only few of his works have survived. I like the recordings below. The both are virtuoso performances though the Coudurier disc has a better recording sound.  Does anybody know about these organs?? Any opinions?

Massive organ nerd here!

The organ in the 1st disc is the organ in St. Ludger's Church (Ludgerikirche) in Norden, Germany. It's an exceptional, but quirkily shaped organ, since the church itself is so strangely shaped and if it were to be placed in a "standard" position, half of the congregation wouldn't be able to hear it!
It started out as a Rennaissance instrument built in 1618 incorporating 16th-century pipework, but was extensively rebuilt by the famous Northern German maker Schnitger (who monopolized organ-building, an industry of scale, in Northern Germany, built Lubeck's organs in Hamburg and Stade, and whom Buxtehude knew well). After being mindlessly altered in the 19th century, it was restored back to full glory by the Ahrends.
Here's a video featuring it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmQ2OIMYsjs

Some other excellent recordings featuring it I can think of are Foccroulle's Tunder, Bob van Asperen's Froberger, Leonhardt's disc "Northern German organ works," and of course MDG's series featuring this organ.

The other organ is the Treutmann in Grauhof, an organ that was built later in the 1730's. This is the Central-German (as opossed to Schnitger's Norther German) type that Bach, but not Lubeck, would be familiar with -- compared to the relatively conservative Northern Organs, it has many more string stops and strove for a milder, more colorful sound. It also shows influences of different organ schools; there are french influences and also Italian ones (the Oberwerk, played through the 3rd manual, sounds like an Italian organ!) But this can be a hit-or-miss in Lubeck's works - sometimes, I like the gravitas and color it has, but other times, I miss the screaming, blinding mixtures of a great Northern organ.

Can't think of recordings played on this organ that impress me too much, but Messori's Bach played on this organ is quite nice. So are the few All-of-Bach selections played on it
http://allofbach.com/en/bwv/bwv-615/

As for the playing, Coudurier is quite nice and uses the organ well, although there are some clunky moments here and there. For Vincent Lubeck, I think I like Bocker's double album of his works (May be OOP), or Kelemen, who plays on Lubeck's own Schnitger organ in Stade. (I don't usually tend to like Kelemen, but he is pretty darn exciting in this disc!). Jacques van Oortmerssen has an excellent recording of the C Major Prelude on his recording "The Arp Schnitger organ at the St. Cosmae Church in Stade" on denon.

Flamme's playing can be a hit-or-miss, although I like this Lubeck disc. His Schildt is also pretty cool, too.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #461 on: March 11, 2017, 10:52:26 PM »
The only Lubeck piece I've explored really is Ich ruf zu dir.

Leon Berben's probably my favourite from commercial recordings, I think it has all the vitality of Coudurier and Chapuis, and I appreciate Berben's extra grandeur and  spirituality. Walter Kraft 's recording probably influenced my expectations of the music. But Kraft's recordings aren't available and anyway the sound's not very good.
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #462 on: March 11, 2017, 11:41:33 PM »
The only Lubeck piece I've explored really is Ich ruf zu dir.

Leon Berben's probably my favourite from commercial recordings, I think it has all the vitality of Coudurier and Chapuis, and I appreciate Berben's extra grandeur and  spirituality. Walter Kraft 's recording probably influenced my expectations of the music. But Kraft's recordings aren't available and anyway the sound's not very good.

Berben's mighty fine, but hard to find....

Good news: it's on Spotify! Woohoo!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:45:11 PM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #463 on: March 12, 2017, 02:57:41 AM »
Walter Kraft's Lübeck remains my favorite even if the sound is somewhat dated and mono (Vox ca 1956). Other than this I agree about Böcker and Coudurier. But most of the few existing Lübeck sets are worth a listen, f.i. this:

https://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-Hansen-S%C3%B6ren-Gleerup/dp/B000ICM2FG/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1489316133&sr=1-8&keywords=vincent+l%C3%BCbeck

If somebody wants to hear the Kraft recording, send me a PM.
res severa verum gaudium

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #464 on: March 12, 2017, 08:20:24 AM »
Thank you for the valuable info. I like the organ Coudurier played.  Kelemen is on Spotify too. Hansen is on YT. I will look for Bocker.

Bocker:  https://youtu.be/19l9ypvsFUA
Hansen: https://youtu.be/Zk17wbZvXeM
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 09:07:57 AM by Forever Electoral College »

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #465 on: March 12, 2017, 02:59:06 PM »
Thank you for the valuable info. I like the organ Coudurier played.  Kelemen is on Spotify too. Hansen is on YT. I will look for Bocker.

Bocker:  https://youtu.be/19l9ypvsFUA
Hansen: https://youtu.be/Zk17wbZvXeM

I didn't know Hansen, but the organ he used gave me a bad "neo-baroque" aftertaste. Anyone know which one it is?

Funny that Bocker's holding the same post at St. Cosmae at Stade that Lubeck held 300 years ago.

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #466 on: March 12, 2017, 06:32:12 PM »
They are on YT.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0-pevKlo6lKCYqb_soBMACZN21wOwSHR

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzbGzcWoNFo_fiFRsqRoy7MswsLgYMpG

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeYmSJofT2BcoKl7NrED799a3CSuYZY8X

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNfNpC82zjVigPW6JoeyDrD3Vl5pvyGXe









Just received the Cornet 2 CD set (Arnaud Van de Cauter), recommended in this thread, and am enjoying it a great deal. Also, today, I stumbled across this set, which looks very intriguing. Does anyone have this?





My German is crap (I'm barely an A2 speaker after all my efforts), but I will try to get through this review:

http://de.brilliantclassics.com/2015/12/various-500-years-of-organ-music/

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #467 on: March 12, 2017, 06:57:05 PM »
Any review/opinion on the Great European Organs Series by Kimberly Marshall, Gerard Brooks, etc?  Thanks.

http://prioryrecords.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_66


Offline Que

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Offline Marc

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #469 on: March 12, 2017, 11:38:23 PM »
This one might be interesting, too: a twofer filled with North German baroque organ music, played on beautiful Schnitgers in the Niedersachsen region. It's a nice selection of works by Sweelinck, Scheidt, Scheidemann, Tunder, Buxtehude, Lübeck, Böhm, Bruhns et al.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/arp-schnitger-in-niedersachsen/hnum/5196053

http://www.nomine.net/arp-schnitger-in-niedersachsen
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #470 on: March 13, 2017, 01:18:21 AM »
This one might be interesting, too: a twofer filled with North German baroque organ music, played on beautiful Schnitgers in the Niedersachsen region. It's a nice selection of works by Sweelinck, Scheidt, Scheidemann, Tunder, Buxtehude, Lübeck, Böhm, Bruhns et al.

And it can be added, that most of Vincent Lübeck's organ works are included in this twofer.
res severa verum gaudium

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #471 on: March 13, 2017, 08:05:48 AM »
This one might be interesting, too: a twofer filled with North German baroque organ music, played on beautiful Schnitgers in the Niedersachsen region. It's a nice selection of works by Sweelinck, Scheidt, Scheidemann, Tunder, Buxtehude, Lübeck, Böhm, Bruhns et al.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/arp-schnitger-in-niedersachsen/hnum/5196053

http://www.nomine.net/arp-schnitger-in-niedersachsen

The site states that "Harald Vogel, Hans Davidsson, and Prof. Roland Dopfer are the other guarantors for quality, choice of music and appropriate choice of organ stops." Wow.

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #472 on: March 13, 2017, 07:26:15 PM »
Walter Kraft's Lübeck remains my favorite even if the sound is somewhat dated and mono (Vox ca 1956). Other than this I agree about Böcker and Coudurier. But most of the few existing Lübeck sets are worth a listen, f.i. this:

https://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-Hansen-S%C3%B6ren-Gleerup/dp/B000ICM2FG/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1489316133&sr=1-8&keywords=vincent+l%C3%BCbeck

If somebody wants to hear the Kraft recording, send me a PM.

I would appreciate your review, perhaps negative one, on Flamme work.

Offline Marc

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #473 on: March 13, 2017, 11:45:40 PM »
The site states that "Harald Vogel, Hans Davidsson, and Prof. Roland Dopfer are the other guarantors for quality, choice of music and appropriate choice of organ stops." Wow.

Prof. Harald Vogel.
And Prof. Hans Davidsson.

Prof. Prof. Prof.
(Herr Professor. Welcome in Germany.)

Seriously: I have the predecessor of this set (gone OOP now) and it's a great collection.
Dunno why they replaced some of the performances in this re-issue, maybe because Prof., Prof. and Prof. did not agree with the choice of organ stops... :P
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 11:47:39 PM by Marc »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #474 on: March 14, 2017, 11:51:58 AM »
Prof. Harald Vogel.
And Prof. Hans Davidsson.

Prof. Prof. Prof.
(Herr Professor. Welcome in Germany.)


My former organ teacher once told a story about one of Karl Richter's recordings for DG. Unfortunately the producers name was also Richter and even the engineers name was Richter. So they adressed each other in this way:

Professor Richter (Karl Richter)
Doctor Richter (the producer)
Hr. Richter (the engineer)
res severa verum gaudium

Offline Marc

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #475 on: March 14, 2017, 12:12:03 PM »
My former organ teacher once told a story about one of Karl Richter's recordings for DG. Unfortunately the producers name was also Richter and even the engineers name was Richter. So they adressed each other in this way:

Professor Richter (Karl Richter)
Doctor Richter (the producer)
Hr. Richter (the engineer)

Did DG ever record Bach's 'piano' concertos with S. Richter, accompanied by the Münchner Bach-Orchester (et al)?
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #476 on: March 14, 2017, 12:56:45 PM »
I would appreciate your review, perhaps negative one, on Flamme work.

My greatest concern is about the organ (Treutmann / Grauhof) which I think is an unfortunate choice for V. Lübeck's organ works. It would be natural to choose a Schnitger-type instrument. But the Treutmann organ does not sound really North German, rather somewhere between Thüringean and South German. Generally its plenum seems to have a fat sound, which does not blend too well (this is also my impression from other recordings of this organ - I have not heard it live)  but on the other hand there are a number of nice solo stops, which however generally are of little use in Lübeck's works. I think it might be well suited for Pachelbel. Flamme's registrations tend to be too full and the spacious acoustics are of no help to clarify the details. Otherwise Flamme's ideas about Lübeck's music are not bad, f.i. he displays a relevant sense of the Stylus Phantasticus which is so important in this music. And there can be a lot of drive in his playlng, the effect of which unfortunately is damped by the reverberation.
res severa verum gaudium

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #477 on: March 14, 2017, 01:00:29 PM »
Did DG ever record Bach's 'piano' concertos with S. Richter, accompanied by the Münchner Bach-Orchester (et al)?

Fortunately not.

BTW Karl Richter in München often used a basoon player called Fritz Henker.

Richter means judge
Henker means hangman
res severa verum gaudium

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #478 on: March 14, 2017, 02:15:35 PM »
My greatest concern is about the organ (Treutmann / Grauhof) which I think is an unfortunate choice for V. Lübeck's organ works. It would be natural to choose a Schnitger-type instrument. But the Treutmann organ does not sound really North German, rather somewhere between Thüringean and South German. Generally its plenum seems to have a fat sound, which does not blend too well (this is also my impression from other recordings of this organ - I have not heard it live)  but on the other hand there are a number of nice solo stops, which however generally are of little use in Lübeck's works. I think it might be well suited for Pachelbel. Flamme's registrations tend to be too full and the spacious acoustics are of no help to clarify the details. Otherwise Flamme's ideas about Lübeck's music are not bad, f.i. he displays a relevant sense of the Stylus Phantasticus which is so important in this music. And there can be a lot of drive in his playlng, the effect of which unfortunately is damped by the reverberation.
I appreciate the insightful critique. I did not know the historical context for organ choice. Largey I agree with your analyses about the organ sound, reverb, and his able execution. Thank you.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 02:22:10 PM by Forever Electoral College »

Offline Forever Electoral College

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Re: The Organ, Master of them all - general organ thread
« Reply #479 on: March 14, 2017, 02:19:34 PM »
My former organ teacher once told a story about one of Karl Richter's recordings for DG. Unfortunately the producers name was also Richter and even the engineers name was Richter. So they adressed each other in this way:

Professor Richter (Karl Richter)
Doctor Richter (the producer)
Hr. Richter (the engineer)
Professors do not have to have doctoral degree though most of them at major universities do. In this case, the producer may appear to have a higher positin than KR.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 02:24:47 PM by Forever Electoral College »

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