Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 683152 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11500 on: September 02, 2017, 01:16:45 PM »
To judge by the number of views this series of posts gets, I would say they are perhaps the mainstay of my blog!  Well, the 1790's presented their own challenge in compiling a list for, but I've done the first half, conveniently demarcated by the time in London. Hope you find it helpful. Once it has done duty as a post, I shall move it to its own page, like the other references are.

Now that's a lot of music!

Thanks,
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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11501 on: September 07, 2017, 09:53:43 AM »
Well, cross-posting again (below just left in the listening thread) - apropos to my previous post here, I decided to purchase the trumpet concerto CD on Telarc w/ Rolf Smedvig - the recording was nominated for a 1990 Grammy, but did not win.  In the running were the two ladies (recommended on follow-up posts to my request for suggestions) - for a 'new' disc, the Telarc CD was my least expensive option - about to listen to my two 'keyed trumpet' versions, which I'll probably prefer?  Dave :)

Quote
Trumpet Concertos w/ Rolf Smedvig on a modern instrument - mainly purchased to add another 'modern instrument' performance of the Haydn Concerto (only other one in my collection is w/ Marsalis from the '80s) - great Telarc sound from 1989; unfortunately, Smedvig died suddenly a few years ago at the age of 62 years (cardiac event); my other considerations were the two lady trumpeters below in the middle - both receiving great reviews, BUT Smedvig was the 'cheapest' available from 'across the pond.'

Now, I also own two versions of the concerto on a 'keyed trumpet' (added at the bottom), which are coming up next for a listen.  Dave :)

P.S. Rolf Smedvig is a founding member of the Empire Brass (CD below in my collection).

   

 

 

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11502 on: September 07, 2017, 11:17:35 AM »
Well, cross-posting again (below just left in the listening thread) - apropos to my previous post here, I decided to purchase the trumpet concerto CD on Telarc w/ Rolf Smedvig - the recording was nominated for a 1990 Grammy, but did not win.  In the running were the two ladies (recommended on follow-up posts to my request for suggestions) - for a 'new' disc, the Telarc CD was my least expensive option - about to listen to my two 'keyed trumpet' versions, which I'll probably prefer?  Dave :)

Well, they are all good, no doubt of that. Of those, I think Bennett, then Helseth (for one of each). I like Pinnock's backup a lot, they do a good job helping Bennett through the tough spots. :)  Balsom is a hell of a trumpeter though, I have to say that in fairness. Not sure if you 'previewed' any of these on Youtube first, but I would. There just might be something that appeals or repels you that someone else isn't likely to tell you about. :-\

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11503 on: September 07, 2017, 11:31:58 AM »
Well, they are all good, no doubt of that. Of those, I think Bennett, then Helseth (for one of each). I like Pinnock's backup a lot, they do a good job helping Bennett through the tough spots. :)  Balsom is a hell of a trumpeter though, I have to say that in fairness. Not sure if you 'previewed' any of these on Youtube first, but I would. There just might be something that appeals or repels you that someone else isn't likely to tell you about. :-\

Hi Gurn - thanks for your comments; Smedvig is quite satisfactory in these trumpet works (have not compared him w/ Marsalis but maybe later) - I just finished my two 'keyed trumpet' discs and must say that I enjoy Reinhold Friedrich the most, so probably no need for me to add yet another (and 5th) version of this concerto to my collection; BUT, I'll take a look on Spotify to see if the two gals are available - I can stream from the Spotify app on my iPad to some BT speakers w/ decent sound.  Dave :)

ADDENDUM:  Well, I did listen to Helseth on Spotify - impressed, and as good if not better than Smedvig, but a $24 Amazon USA purchase ($9 for MP3); also, re-listened to Marsalis and enjoyed as much as back in the 1980s when bought - Balsom was available on Spotify too, and impressive - NOW, I've to re-listen to my recent 'male' purchase - women can blow those horns quite well - :)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:38:53 PM by SonicMan46 »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11504 on: October 10, 2017, 05:58:19 PM »
No new essays for a while, life has been happening. However, I finally did get wound up and took a look at the last 4 Keyboard Trios, some of my very favorite of Haydn's chamber music. I learned some things, hope you do too. :)

Not too many amateurs playing THESE!

8)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11505 on: October 10, 2017, 11:05:39 PM »
As usual, a great, deeply informative and illuminating essay. Thank you.

And believe it or not, the very first time I heard the Allegretto of Hob XV:28 my reaction was: boy, this is as eerie as a Bartok night music. To be 150 years ahead of his time, not bad at all for a composer who hoped to be remembered for at most 40 years after his death.  8)

EDIT: ...and who would probably not make it into a GMG Top 10 Greatest / Favorite Piano Trios Poll;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 11:10:07 PM by Florestan »
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11506 on: October 11, 2017, 04:23:08 AM »
As usual, a great, deeply informative and illuminating essay. Thank you.

And believe it or not, the very first time I heard the Allegretto of Hob XV:28 my reaction was: boy, this is as eerie as a Bartok night music. To be 150 years ahead of his time, not bad at all for a composer who hoped to be remembered for at most 40 years after his death.  8)

EDIT: ...and who would probably not make it into a GMG Top 10 Greatest / Favorite Piano Trios Poll;D ;D ;D

Thanks!  And I sure agree with that. I have to say it felt to me like Beethoven's 'Ghost Trio' in many ways. Whenever I hear something very unusual like that, I always try and put myself in the place of the first players and audiences (as they might have been) and imagine how they reacted, having no points or reference to things which happened later, like we have. It must have really made an impression. :)

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11507 on: October 12, 2017, 01:25:23 AM »
Thanks!  And I sure agree with that. I have to say it felt to me like Beethoven's 'Ghost Trio' in many ways. Whenever I hear something very unusual like that, I always try and put myself in the place of the first players and audiences (as they might have been) and imagine how they reacted, having no points or reference to things which happened later, like we have. It must have really made an impression. :)

8)

It always makes me think of baroque pieces like, I dunno, the slow movements from the Bach trio sonatas or indeed air on a G string.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 01:29:21 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11508 on: October 12, 2017, 04:26:42 AM »
It always makes me think of baroque pieces like, I dunno, the slow movements from the Bach trio sonatas or indeed air on a G string.

Or even some of the Phantasticus pieces from the early 17th century. And if, indeed, Haydn consciously or unconsciously took those as a model, one wonders where in hell he heard it. Because they certainly weren't playing that sort of music during his lifetime!  I would love to be able to trace the genesis of some things like this. (I'm a history guy, after all). :)

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11509 on: October 12, 2017, 07:25:59 AM »
I think someone compared that allegretto to a baroque ostinato piece. I doubt that Haydn knew 17th century Stylus Phantasticus but he probably knew a little 18th century Bach, Fux, Handel etc. (Recall the fugues in the op.20 quartets or the canons in some symphonies (menuet in 44, andante in 70.) And he had also enough creativity to come up with such a strange piece on his own ;)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11510 on: October 12, 2017, 10:28:41 AM »
I think someone compared that allegretto to a baroque ostinato piece. I doubt that Haydn knew 17th century Stylus Phantasticus but he probably knew a little 18th century Bach, Fux, Handel etc. (Recall the fugues in the op.20 quartets or the canons in some symphonies (menuet in 44, andante in 70.) And he had also enough creativity to come up with such a strange piece on his own ;)

He probably knew Fux better than anyone but Fux, since his own copy of 'Gradus ad Parnassum' was fully annotated (much in Latin) and corrected in his hand. It is probably quite likely that he came up with the eeriness ex nihilo, since there don't appear to be current models, nor that he had access to any ancient ones. It is an interesting effect though. :)

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Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11511 on: October 12, 2017, 11:55:42 AM »
He probably knew Fux better than anyone but Fux, since his own copy of 'Gradus ad Parnassum' was fully annotated (much in Latin) and corrected in his hand. It is probably quite likely that he came up with the eeriness ex nihilo, since there don't appear to be current models, nor that he had access to any ancient ones. It is an interesting effect though. :)

8)

What might he have found in the musical archives at Morzin and Esterhaza?

And although he would have not yet received any formal training he may gave heard music by eg Biber or Schmelzer during his St. Stephen's days.

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11512 on: October 12, 2017, 11:57:52 AM »
OT
I must admit I got sidetracked a bit before that last post, in checking out St Stephen's, by the Hapsburg tradition of being buried in three different churches.

Offline Old Listener

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11513 on: October 15, 2017, 06:56:45 PM »
No new essays for a while, life has been happening. However, I finally did get wound up and took a look at the last 4 Keyboard Trios, some of my very favorite of Haydn's chamber music. I learned some things, hope you do too. :)

Not too many amateurs playing THESE!


I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too.  Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London.  If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11514 on: October 15, 2017, 07:13:02 PM »
I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too.  Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London.  If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

That's a good question. The bigger picture is that instead of symphonies he was doing masses. There is a prevailing belief among musicologists that he was not only using larger orchestras than the norm, but also constructing the masses along all the major structural lines as the late symphonies used. I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with this, but there are those (Robbins Landon was one) who were simply unable to accept that Haydn quit writing symphonies, therefore his masses were just choral symphonies.

The workshop ideas, I have to say, are less concrete, and I think it's because we are looking back, knowing what the end has in store. But Haydn didn't know when the end would come, and his brain never stopped generating musical ideas. There will be a point later where he tells someone that (it's quite sad) he gets new ideas all the time but simply doesn't have the strength or the concentration to write them down any more. But the rhythmic and harmonic ideas of the 1780's were used in bigger works in the 1790's, and I can only speculate that the ideas of the mid-later 1790's would have been used in the 1800's if he had been able to write beyond 1802. Still, many later composers benefited from his thoughts, either directly or through their perpetuation by Beethoven, Schubert and others.

At least, that's what I believe. If anyone has written on it I haven't seen it yet.

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Offline Scarpia

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11515 on: October 17, 2017, 09:30:39 PM »
Or even some of the Phantasticus pieces from the early 17th century. And if, indeed, Haydn consciously or unconsciously took those as a model, one wonders where in hell he heard it. Because they certainly weren't playing that sort of music during his lifetime!  I would love to be able to trace the genesis of some things like this. (I'm a history guy, after all). :)

8)

Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.




Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11516 on: October 18, 2017, 04:28:10 AM »
Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.

No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

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Offline Scarpia

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11517 on: October 18, 2017, 08:08:42 AM »
No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

Offline kyjo

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11518 on: October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11519 on: October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM »
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to  8)
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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