Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 841189 times)

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Online ritter

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11580 on: November 05, 2017, 08:33:08 AM »
(crosspost with A Little History thread)

Just the other week I've listened to Haydn's Paris Symphonies and a (heretical) thought crossed my mind. Supppose the six symphonies are disassembled in their constitutive movements and then these are shuffled randomly to reconstitute a symphony. For instance, we could get the first movement from The Bear, the second movement from The Hen, the minuet from The Queen and the finale of the 87th. Question(s): would it make any difference? Would this concoction be any less coherent than the originals? Would an unprevented listener be able to feel and tell that there is something wrong with it? At first sight I'm tempted to answer in the negative.
Gurn alert!!!!  ;)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11581 on: November 05, 2017, 08:42:17 AM »
Gurn alert!!!!  ;)

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Online Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11582 on: November 05, 2017, 08:54:12 AM »
First of all, the movements would have to be transposed into the proper keys. And even then I do not think that it would work for the Paris symphonies. Or at least that they would be more coherent and convincing in there original shape. E.g. in the case of the "Bear" one has the rustic music reminiscent of the dancing bear both at the end of the slow movement and (different music but evoking similar associations) in the drones of the finale and the minuet is also more folksy and less courtly than in #85.

But it might work for some other (usually earlier) symphonies (not all of them, e.g. in the "Farewell" there could not be any changes) and there are a even few example of movements that were re-used or re-shuffled. For his #89 he re-used two movements from a divertimento or notturno (with lira organizzata) but they were expanded and re-orchestrated, the Romance from the Military symphony also stems from such a lighter piece (but was obviously expanded to get the fanfares/drum etc.).
Although this is far less frequent even in early/middle Haydn than with e.g. Handel (who of course was a notorious re-user and borrower from himself and others) and other baroque composers.

It depends on the piece, of course, but I think that in the mature classical style most large scale works have a certain coherence and a specific character. Even late Haydn works might not be such clear cases as e.g. Mozart's last three symphonies each of which uses a different orchestra and has a very specific indivual character but Haydn's are certainly far closer to them than to some Handel concerti assembled by the publisher (or the composer) with frequent re-using of basically the same music, only in slightly different orchestrations.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
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Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11583 on: November 05, 2017, 09:39:55 AM »
As Haydn continued to expand his art, more and more of his works were cyclic, just in the sense you would use it for many 19th century works. Many times, the introduction presented the themes for the first movement, and sometimes later movements harked back to that too. Also, even as early as #81 (IIRC) he presents key statements in the opening movement which don't get resolved until the finale.

That said, if Haydn DID present a theme in the introduction and it wasn't elaborated later on, would you know it? I probably wouldn't, but an expert probably would be waiting for it to happen and be disappointed when it didn't. Since Haydn's fondest desire was to write works that would make the experts happy, while at the same time making ME happy, he would have felt he failed if he didn't accomplish one or another of those goals.

Cyclicism  is a topic I've hit on several times in my symphony essays. Any time I've found mention of it in the literature I've tried to follow it up because it is interesting to me in tracing his growth as a composer. However, as far as the original question goes, if you made the proper key changes that Jo mentioned, at my state of musical knowledge I would be just as entertained as not. Most of you probably would too. :)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11584 on: November 05, 2017, 10:15:01 AM »
as far as the original question goes, if you made the proper key changes that Jo mentioned, at my state of musical knowledge I would be just as entertained as not. Most of you probably would too. :)

I expected a rebuttal and I got an approval instead. Great! Thank you, Gurn:laugh:
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Online Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11585 on: November 05, 2017, 10:51:37 AM »
Two examples of explicit, "cyclic" returns of earlier movements are in #31 where the opening "hornsignal" returns as a thrilling conclusion to the (somewhat lengthy...) variation finale and #46 where first movement, menuet and finale have thematic relationships and the menuet theme is explictly recapitulated in a section of the finale. So Haydn was experimenting with such stuff quite early on but it was not in any way standard or a "rule" and there are other pieces where movements could be swapped for others.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11586 on: November 05, 2017, 02:41:55 PM »
Two examples of explicit, "cyclic" returns of earlier movements are in #31 where the opening "hornsignal" returns as a thrilling conclusion to the (somewhat lengthy...) variation finale and #46 where first movement, menuet and finale have thematic relationships and the menuet theme is explictly recapitulated in a section of the finale. So Haydn was experimenting with such stuff quite early on but it was not in any way standard or a "rule" and there are other pieces where movements could be swapped for others.

The pattern in #46 is anticipated a couple of years earlier in the cyclic design of CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor Wq 43 #4, which, if memory serves, also reprises a minuet theme in the finale, in this case as part of a more comprehensive cyclic design. There are other examples among Bach's works of dramatic cyclic structures in which the theme of an earlier movement is reprised to address unresolved tensions, most notably the Prussian Sonata no. 3 in E.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 05:44:44 AM by BasilValentine »

kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11587 on: November 05, 2017, 04:56:00 PM »
On an unrelated note, I just listened to a recording of the Nelson Mass conducted by Ferencsik Janos (Hungarian State SO, with Stader, Hellman,  Haefliger, and von Halem). It's the most energetic performance I can remember. Surely a pleaser.

Online Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11588 on: November 06, 2017, 04:51:51 AM »
The pattern in #46 is anticipated a couple of years earlier in the cyclic design of CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor Wq 48 #4, which, if memory serves, also reprises a minuet theme in the finale, in this case as part of a more comprehensive cyclic design. There are other examples among Bach's works of dramatic cyclic structures in which the theme of an earlier movement is reprised to address unresolved tensions, most notably the Prussian Sonata no. 3 in E.
That's interesting; I know the concerto (not sure about the sonata) and you are right, I think an even larger section returns than in Haydn's case. For me these and other (often more subtle) examples are enough to show that it while there were also "loose" works and movements could be transferred to other pieces there was also a clear tendency to achieve some kind of unity. There are some baroque works that do that, even in suites the pieces of which could and would be played in isolation one often finds the Allemande and Courante starting with similar motives but high classical multi-movement works usually strive for a different and stronger unity than baroque suites.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11589 on: November 06, 2017, 06:01:12 AM »
That's interesting; I know the concerto (not sure about the sonata) and you are right, I think an even larger section returns than in Haydn's case. For me these and other (often more subtle) examples are enough to show that it while there were also "loose" works and movements could be transferred to other pieces there was also a clear tendency to achieve some kind of unity. There are some baroque works that do that, even in suites the pieces of which could and would be played in isolation one often finds the Allemande and Courante starting with similar motives but high classical multi-movement works usually strive for a different and stronger unity than baroque suites.

Initially I incorrectly identified the concerto as Wq 48 #4 when in fact it is Wq 43#4. Anyway, the concerto is truly cyclic in that the finale is a reprise of the first movement, but with interpolations from the other movements, including the minuet (weird in itself for a concerto).

Prussian 3 is a truly remarkable work in its unprecedented (in 1742) dramatic approach to thematic processes. The opening theme, like many of Beethoven's later experiments, contains an internal opposition of motive, mode and phrasing that renders it impossible to recapitulate in anything close to a literal fashion. On the return the theme is truncated into a stark, halting restatement of the opposition. This intensification of thematic conflict in the recap creates tension unresolved at the finale cadence. This, I believe, is why the slow movement's theme transposes the notes of the first movement theme note for note into the relative minor — the unresolved tension from the first movement demands attention.

I've always wondered if Haydn and Beethoven knew the Prussians. They were, I believe, among Bach's better known works, but I could find no direct evidence.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11590 on: November 06, 2017, 08:10:34 AM »
I've always wondered if Haydn and Beethoven knew the Prussians. They were, I believe, among Bach's better known works, but I could find no direct evidence.

No need to wonder: Haydn was a huge fan of CPE Bach, he had his book, The True Art of Playing the Clavier and also many of his scores, which he says he "couldn't go to sleep last night until I had played them all through".  The only candidates, due to publication dates in Vienna for various works, are the Prussian Sonatas. So I would say certainly he did.

Beethoven, before he moved from Bonn to Vienna, was a student of Christian Neefe, who taught him the keyboard by playing 'Old Bach's 48' (The Well-Tempered Clavier). It is unimaginable that Beethoven, like Mozart and Haydn before him, didn't also learn from The True Art of Playing the Clavier. By the time competitive 'piano schools' came out, like Turk's, for example, Beethoven didn't need it anymore. :)  Don't know about the Prussian Sonatas there, although certainly the ones "Für Kenner und Liebhaber"

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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11591 on: November 06, 2017, 12:27:46 PM »
Thanks Gurn! ^ ^ ^ Hadn't put that together.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11592 on: November 06, 2017, 12:51:00 PM »
Thanks Gurn! ^ ^ ^ Hadn't put that together.

It's handy for a theoretician and an historian to get together now and again... :D

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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11593 on: November 08, 2017, 08:11:46 AM »
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE




Sarge

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11594 on: November 08, 2017, 09:03:47 AM »
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE




Sarge

Great! It should be here within a year... :-\  I'll go see if Amazon UK has it, that's where I got the last one. Thanks for the info, Sarge.

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kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11595 on: November 08, 2017, 04:48:10 PM »
Great! It should be here within a year... :-\  I'll go see if Amazon UK has it, that's where I got the last one. Thanks for the info, Sarge.

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I ordered it last night from Arkivmusic, which lists it as in stock
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2261454

Offline Old Listener

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11596 on: November 09, 2017, 11:05:29 PM »
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE




Sarge

The album is available as a download on eClassical.com.  You can listen to the entire album in 30 sec. chunks for free.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11597 on: November 10, 2017, 04:26:51 AM »
You can listen to the entire album in 30 sec. chunks for free.

You don't say.  0:)
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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11598 on: November 10, 2017, 04:58:22 AM »
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE




Sarge

I streamed it from Apple Music...it's good, but I would've preferred more Armonico performances with this cycle. But I'm thrilled that there have been two new recordings of No. 80 in the past two years (Dantone and Antonini)!

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11599 on: November 10, 2017, 05:35:30 AM »
I streamed it from Apple Music...it's good, but I would've preferred more Armonico performances with this cycle.

Yeah, I'm surprised they changed orchestras. My copy arrived today.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
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