Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 788214 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11700 on: January 21, 2018, 06:22:40 PM »
Seems to me you have enough chops to do the job!
Who knows, perhaps in years to come they'll talk about GurnVerzeichnis numbers!

Well, I can always wish. :)   

8)
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11701 on: January 21, 2018, 06:24:20 PM »
For moment I thought I was in a time loop...
(Yes, I know you didn't want it to get lost.)

:D It's like déjà vu all over again...  :D

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11702 on: January 22, 2018, 12:27:48 AM »
This seems fairly obvious: Of course you do not re-assign numbers because this would result in a lot of confusion when using older sources when a different piece had the number.
So Hoboken stays, or even Koechel (despite some efforts) and you get a new additional number in brackets. The current Haydn edition did some re-distribution, e.g. separating the early string divertimenti from the quartets (op.9 and later).
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11703 on: January 22, 2018, 02:02:10 AM »
This seems fairly obvious: Of course you do not re-assign numbers because this would result in a lot of confusion when using older sources when a different piece had the number.

Witness the Mozart catalogue.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11704 on: January 22, 2018, 03:55:03 AM »
OK, haus keeper. Whom do you prefer when it comes to keyboard solo and with orchestra? The less tinny the sound the better  ::)

Or you can start with your favorite non-symphonic works of him.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 03:56:50 AM by The One »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11705 on: January 22, 2018, 05:35:55 AM »
This seems fairly obvious: Of course you do not re-assign numbers because this would result in a lot of confusion when using older sources when a different piece had the number.
So Hoboken stays, or even Koechel (despite some efforts) and you get a new additional number in brackets. The current Haydn edition did some re-distribution, e.g. separating the early string divertimenti from the quartets (op.9 and later).

In principle I agree with you but in practice, changing Hob 2:6 to 3:5 would confuse, perhaps, 3 people. They would learn to adapt. Of course you wouldn't do it wholesale.

As it is now, many Köchel numbers are 3 or more deep, some of them with an Anhang tag added in. Who wants to deal with that stuff? As it is, 90% of people, including nearly all CD publishers, still use KV1 numbers if they ever existed (they often didn't because the work had never been assigned one before). The NMA numbers may be brilliantly conceived, but are doomed to failure, I'm afraid.

Really, the fact of the matter is that the only people who use anything other than opus numbers (which are essentially irrelevant before the 19th century) or "symphony #24" numbers is a tiny fraction of all people who have anything to do with the music. I would suppose that any of those who had a modicum of intelligence would welcome someone to come in and straighten out the mess that has accumulated over the years, sometimes even because it was messed up to begin with (common in Hoboken). I certainly wish someone would fix up the Haydn numbers!

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11706 on: January 22, 2018, 05:37:16 AM »
OK, haus keeper. Whom do you prefer when it comes to keyboard solo and with orchestra? The less tinny the sound the better  ::)

Or you can start with your favorite non-symphonic works of him.

You want Brautigam for both the concertos and the sonatas. I'm all about tinny, I like Schornsheim. :)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11707 on: January 22, 2018, 05:38:17 AM »
You want Brautigam for both the concertos and the sonatas. I'm all about tinny, I like Schornsheim. :)

 8)

Please, sieur: we say jangly, hereabouts  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11708 on: January 22, 2018, 06:33:23 AM »
I don't think one can avoid that if a catalogue has had some prominence and was widely known(Koechel far more so than Hoboken) then the numbers will stick. It is still good to have a better reference system for musicologists but hardly anyone will bother to learn 417b (or whatever) instead of 421 and while "d minor quartet" is not unique, almost always this is the piece that one refers to).

Hoboken was a mess from the beginning because it did already collide with other common numberings (opus in the quartets and others in the piano sonatas). So you are right that there would not be such a problem in changing numbers of the Hoboken. But it would still tend to add confusion. Even as it is is now I have talked past people because we were using different numbers for a Haydn piano sonata.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11709 on: January 22, 2018, 06:54:08 AM »
You want Brautigam for both the concertos and the sonatas. I'm all about tinny, I like Schornsheim. :)

8)

I have the concertos. So you want me to buy this? (I have tried giving link to presto via the thumbnail)


Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11710 on: January 22, 2018, 07:01:53 AM »
I don't think one can avoid that if a catalogue has had some prominence and was widely known(Koechel far more so than Hoboken) then the numbers will stick. It is still good to have a better reference system for musicologists but hardly anyone will bother to learn 417b (or whatever) instead of 421 and while "d minor quartet" is not unique, almost always this is the piece that one refers to).

Hoboken was a mess from the beginning because it did already collide with other common numberings (opus in the quartets and others in the piano sonatas). So you are right that there would not be such a problem in changing numbers of the Hoboken. But it would still tend to add confusion. Even as it is is now I have talked past people because we were using different numbers for a Haydn piano sonata.

I have watched discussions on this topic many times over the years, and still haven't convinced anyone that Biamonti is the only reasonable Beethoven numbering... :D    Mostly it is people getting confused because they simply didn't see a need to make an investment of time and learning effort until there actually WAS a need, and then trying to catch up.

The keyboard sonatas (and trios) are yet another fine example of confusion, which I have addressed a blog page to, and it is one of the most heavily used references on my site.  I think Landon numbers are a wonderful thing, and as nearly as I can tell, most pianists learn them from the beginning (because sheet music publishers use them), but most other people don't. Honestly, I still use Hoboken numbers for them, even though I am intimately familiar with all of the alternatives. I have assembled concordances of nearly all of the competing systems, and of course the one and only constant is Hoboken. Which is why I am all about just fixing it instead of writing yet another competitor, no matter that it would be far superior. :-\

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11711 on: January 22, 2018, 07:03:13 AM »
I have the concertos. So you want me to buy this? (I have tried giving link to presto via the thumbnail)



I think it is an excellent box, Brautigam is a top shelf player and the instrument he uses is one of the finest sounding fortepianos I have heard.  So, I guess, yeah. :)

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11712 on: January 22, 2018, 07:04:59 AM »
I think it is an excellent box, Brautigam is a top shelf player and the instrument he uses is one of the finest sounding fortepianos I have heard.  So, I guess, yeah. :)

8)

OK! This is gonna be my second set after Mccabe. What else?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 07:09:54 AM by The One »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11713 on: January 22, 2018, 07:05:15 AM »
Please, sieur: we say jangly, hereabouts  8)

Yes, that is far more accurate. A jangle here and there bothers me not a whit. One of my favorite fortepianists (Khouri) is just a jangling fool!  :D  :D

8)
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11714 on: January 22, 2018, 07:14:49 AM »
OK! What else?

Keyboard Trios - Trio 1790. Far and away the finest set of these works. Individual performances by others may be better (in someone's opinion), but as a set, you can't do better.

Cello concertos - Suzuki with Kuijken on DHM or Bylsma with Tafelmusik.

Trumpet Concerto - Best one is Perkins with King's Consort, but for all-Haydn, either Pinnock or Hogwood is also excellent.

String Quartets - Festetics.  You can almost build a nice set with a combination of London Haydn Quartet & Mosaiques, but you will still lack Op 71/74, and also all the joie de vivre that Festetics bring.

I would also look for the 2 BIS boxes by Manfred Huss, 'Music for the King of Naples" and "Early Divertimentos".

And I would get the recently released symphonies box by Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone.

If you had all that, you would have a solid backbone for a superb Haydn collection. You could even not duplicate anything and get a few more disks and have a matchless collection. Well, I could match it, but most can't. :D :D

8)
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Offline king ubu

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11715 on: January 22, 2018, 07:36:47 AM »
I've not made my way through either the Schornsheim or the Brautigam boxes in their entirey yet, but I guess the later is more accessible indeed. Still in the process of getting used to Schornsheim's playing, I assume  ;)

Regarding concertos, I enjoy this set quite some:


(you'll find a backcover scan there with details)

And for sonatas, also this disc by Marcia Hadjimarkos (her Mozart disc on Avie is nice too):

Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11716 on: January 22, 2018, 07:41:09 AM »
I've not made my way through either the Schornsheim or the Brautigam boxes in their entirey yet, but I guess the later is more accessible indeed. Still in the process of getting used to Schornsheim's playing, I assume  ;)

Regarding concertos, I enjoy this set quite some:


(you'll find a backcover scan there with details)

And for sonatas, also this disc by Marcia Hadjimarkos (her Mozart disc on Avie is nice too):



Both of those disks get the Gurn Seal of Approval©. Hadjimarkos plays a mean clavichord, it would be a great introduction for someone who wants to hear what one sounds like. :)

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Offline king ubu

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11717 on: January 22, 2018, 07:53:32 AM »
Both of those disks get the Gurn Seal of Approval©.
Phew, relieved to hear that  ;D
Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

http://ubus-notizen.blogspot.ch/

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11718 on: January 22, 2018, 07:58:46 AM »
Keyboard Trios - Trio 1790. Far and away the finest set of these works. Individual performances by others may be better (in someone's opinion), but as a set, you can't do better.

Cello concertos - Suzuki with Kuijken on DHM or Bylsma with Tafelmusik.

Trumpet Concerto - Best one is Perkins with King's Consort, but for all-Haydn, either Pinnock or Hogwood is also excellent.

String Quartets - Festetics.  You can almost build a nice set with a combination of London Haydn Quartet & Mosaiques, but you will still lack Op 71/74, and also all the joie de vivre that Festetics bring.

I would also look for the 2 BIS boxes by Manfred Huss, 'Music for the King of Naples" and "Early Divertimentos".

And I would get the recently released symphonies box by Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone.

If you had all that, you would have a solid backbone for a superb Haydn collection. You could even not duplicate anything and get a few more disks and have a matchless collection. Well, I could match it, but most can't. :D :D

8)

Yes, I really like this kind of tidy compilations from tycoons

Keyboard Trios - Trio 1790.
I have BAT, Levin/Beths/Bylsma, Cohen/Hobart/Coin and ABEGG here. I'll look for a deal after this post (I listen to only 10 of them, I wonder if it will cost me the whole box :) )


Cello concertos - Suzuki with Kuijken on DHM or Bylsma with Tafelmusik.

I have so many here, including them. I like Comberti


Trumpet Concerto - Best one is Perkins with King's Consort, but for all-Haydn, either Pinnock or Hogwood is also excellent.
I only have Hardenberger and Marsalis but then again I don't listen to it much. I'll try to add Steele-Perkins. Thanks

String Quartets - Festetics.  You can almost build a nice set with a combination of London Haydn Quartet & Mosaiques, but you will still lack Op 71/74, and also all the joie de vivre that Festetics bring.
I listen to 13 of the quartets  and I have them all in PI, too. Festetics set is one of the best of my whole classical music collection. In addition to Festetics, Mosaiques and LHQ, I prefer The Lindsays and Kodaly


I would also look for the 2 BIS boxes by Manfred Huss, 'Music for the King of Naples" and "Early Divertimentos".

This kind of recommendation is what I yearn for.


And I would get the recently released symphonies box by Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone.
I already have it. I have the sets I mentioned before, plus I have the Davis and Jochum for London symphonies and some mixture of Szell(92, 94 and 96), Harnoncourt and Mackerras (100), Abbado and Goodman(101) and Hickox (103 and 104)


What about violin concertos, Sinfonia Concertante(105), Flute Trios(London), The Creation and Arianna a Naxos?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 11:26:52 AM by The One »

The One

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11719 on: January 22, 2018, 08:25:18 AM »
Phew, relieved to hear that  ;D

You've costed me   :D