Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 892609 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 16855
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11760 on: July 16, 2018, 05:40:45 AM »
many of the European letters are nothing but a puzzle to me

FWIW, here are the Romanian correct transliteration of some famous composers, with the additional mention that what you see is what you pronounce:

Ceaikovski
Șostakovici
Rahmaninov

and also some famous capitals of the world:

Londra
Varșovia
Moscova


As a rule of thumb, though, Western names are spelled exactly as in the original language (except geographical names, as partially illustrated above); it's only in cases which use a different alphabet than Latin that a phonetical spelling is the norm.

For instance, although all Romanian newspapers print Sharapova, this is blatantly incorrect; the correct spelling is Șarapova.





« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 05:46:03 AM by Florestan »
“All that is good is light. Everything divine walks on tender feet. This is the first principle of my aesthetics” --- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11761 on: July 16, 2018, 01:05:37 PM »
FWIW, here are the Romanian correct transliteration of some famous composers, with the additional mention that what you see is what you pronounce:

Ceaikovski
Șostakovici
Rahmaninov

and also some famous capitals of the world:

Londra
Varșovia
Moscova


As a rule of thumb, though, Western names are spelled exactly as in the original language (except geographical names, as partially illustrated above); it's only in cases which use a different alphabet than Latin that a phonetical spelling is the norm.

For instance, although all Romanian newspapers print Sharapova, this is blatantly incorrect; the correct spelling is Șarapova.

Yes, but what then do you make of Haӱdn?  While I would wish to mark it down as ignorance, which it would have been in MY case, I will assume that Elßler knew exactly what he was doing. What was he doing??  :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 16855
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11762 on: July 16, 2018, 11:26:03 PM »
Yes, but what then do you make of Haӱdn?  While I would wish to mark it down as ignorance, which it would have been in MY case, I will assume that Elßler knew exactly what he was doing. What was he doing??  :)

8)

I suspect that "y" could have been pronounced actually as "ü" and the dots over it marked the pronunciation as "i". I haven't seen any other instance of such spelling, though.
“All that is good is light. Everything divine walks on tender feet. This is the first principle of my aesthetics” --- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11763 on: July 17, 2018, 03:46:25 AM »
I suspect that "y" could have been pronounced actually as "ü" and the dots over it marked the pronunciation as "i". I haven't seen any other instance of such spelling, though.

No, neither I. I was taken aback when I read it, but the surprising thing to me was that Landon reprinted it without comment. Quite unlike him, and disappointing. :-\

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Gordo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3891
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11764 on: July 17, 2018, 11:50:03 AM »
No, neither I. I was taken aback when I read it, but the surprising thing to me was that Landon reprinted it without comment. Quite unlike him, and disappointing. :-\

8)

The tiny and luxurious details of the scholar!  ;D

Musica lætitiæ comes medicina dolorum
(Music is a companion to joy and a medicine for pains)

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11765 on: July 17, 2018, 01:05:24 PM »
The tiny and luxurious details of the scholar!  ;D

I don't need to dwell on politics when I have pronunciations to gnaw on... :D

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11766 on: July 17, 2018, 05:31:45 PM »
I suspect that "y" could have been pronounced actually as "ü" and the dots over it marked the pronunciation as "i". I haven't seen any other instance of such spelling, though.

Been thinking about this for a while now.

I have seen Haydn's name misspelled a variety of ways, although it is wrong to talk about 'misspelling' in an age when rules of spelling weren't established yet. Most people couldn't "spell" their own name!  As a result, many names you see written are more phonetically than anything else. Haydn's spelling of a lot of English names (which I left intact in my essays when I was quoting the Notebooks) is ample proof of that.

Anyway, one of these 'misspellings', not often seen, is "Haidn" or "Haiden".  Phonetically, if you could construe the 'ӱ' to pronounce like an 'i', then Elssler, who knew it had a 'y' in the middle, could very well have felt as though Haӱdn was the correct spelling phonetically and literally. Hell, maybe he's right!  :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2274
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11767 on: July 17, 2018, 09:32:59 PM »
Been thinking about this for a while now.

I have seen Haydn's name misspelled a variety of ways, although it is wrong to talk about 'misspelling' in an age when rules of spelling weren't established yet. Most people couldn't "spell" their own name!  As a result, many names you see written are more phonetically than anything else. Haydn's spelling of a lot of English names (which I left intact in my essays when I was quoting the Notebooks) is ample proof of that.

Anyway, one of these 'misspellings', not often seen, is "Haidn" or "Haiden".  Phonetically, if you could construe the 'ӱ' to pronounce like an 'i', then Elssler, who knew it had a 'y' in the middle, could very well have felt as though Haӱdn was the correct spelling phonetically and literally. Hell, maybe he's right!  :)

8)

There's probably even less to it. Unfamiliarity and whim... a spell of 'exotic' fancy.
The most likely pronunciation, following the few rules of spelling that were out there at the time (not many!), would make "Haӱdn" pronounced like "Huh-Eden"... which doesn't strike me as a satisfying reason for that particular spelling.

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11768 on: July 18, 2018, 03:32:27 AM »
There's probably even less to it. Unfamiliarity and whim... a spell of 'exotic' fancy.
The most likely pronunciation, following the few rules of spelling that were out there at the time (not many!), would make "Haӱdn" pronounced like "Huh-Eden"... which doesn't strike me as a satisfying reason for that particular spelling.

Hmm, interesting, and damned near tragic!  :D 

I would buy exotic fancy, but since Elßler was with Haydn his whole life, and was a copyist/scribe by profession, unfamiliarity is remote. Whimsicality would be adequate, I should think. :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2274
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11769 on: July 18, 2018, 04:41:23 AM »
Hmm, interesting, and damned near tragic!  :D 

I would buy exotic fancy, but since Elßler was with Haydn his whole life, and was a copyist/scribe by profession, unfamiliarity is remote. Whimsicality would be adequate, I should think. :)

8)

Is he consistent? I know in Bach, depending on how hard a scribe pressed on his quill for the (then common) vertical bar above the lower case "U", it was either a "U" or an "Ü". We still don't know if Bach was following Luther when he wrote "die JÜDEN aber schrieen" (St. John Passion), or if he was just a few grams of pressure too excited.

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11770 on: July 18, 2018, 05:46:20 AM »
Is he consistent? I know in Bach, depending on how hard a scribe pressed on his quill for the (then common) vertical bar above the lower case "U", it was either a "U" or an "Ü". We still don't know if Bach was following Luther when he wrote "die JÜDEN aber schrieen" (St. John Passion), or if he was just a few grams of pressure too excited.

My observation of Elssler, based on viewing a couple of dozen documents he wrote (fair copies of Haydn's music mainly) is that he is one of the best handwriters I've seen from the time, and quite consistent, so yes, I would say so. If he wrote a diaeresis over the y he clearly intended to. It is what he was trying to say which puzzles. I'd like to ask Landon for his thoughts, but he chickened out on me and died first... :D

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Madiel

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6742
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11771 on: July 22, 2018, 11:02:32 PM »
It isn't Slavic. A couple of sources say that it's occasionally used in Dutch/Afrikaans and French. In Dutch it's sometimes used to replace the "ij" letter, in handwriting.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13107
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11772 on: August 13, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
Here I am again to let you know that I enjoyed the live performance of 'Chaos'  from The Creation which began the Prom concert I attended in London on Friday. I was interested to see that the conductor, Sir Antonio Pappano, allowed the end of the Haydn extract to morph into the beginning of Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony without a break. I don't think that I've ever seen that happen in a concert before, although I thought that it worked rather well. I wonder what Haydn would have thought about it!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31410
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11773 on: August 13, 2018, 09:39:43 AM »
Here I am again to let you know that I enjoyed the live performance of 'Chaos'  from The Creation which began the Prom concert I attended in London on Friday. I was interested to see that the conductor, Sir Antonio Pappano, allowed the end of the Haydn extract to morph into the beginning of Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony without a break. I don't think that I've ever seen that happen in a concert before, although I thought that it worked rather well. I wonder what Haydn would have thought about it!

If I understand what you're saying he did there, it was actually similar to what Haydn did in The Creation: the 'overture' comes to a close and there we are, singing about 'Let there be Light'. That is a nicely done touch, I like it!  :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline ritter

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5538
  • Fernand Léger: Nature morte aux fruits
  • Location: "La Villa y Corte"
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11774 on: August 13, 2018, 10:26:21 AM »
.... I was interested to see that the conductor, Sir Antonio Pappano, allowed the end of the Haydn extract to morph into the beginning of Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony without a break. I don't think that I've ever seen that happen in a concert before, although I thought that it worked rather well. I wonder what Haydn would have thought about it!
I’ve only seen such a thing done in concert once. Jonathan Nott conducted the Bamberg orchestra in Ives’s The Unanswered Question and proceeded to Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony just like that, attacca. The effect was mesmerising... :)
Ritter
-------------------------------------------------------------
« Et avec le fer de sa houe il cassa la glace
De la source ou jadis riaient les naïades... »

Offline TheGSMoeller

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 11361
  • Koala Greg
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11775 on: August 13, 2018, 01:06:55 PM »
I’ve only seen such a thing done in concert once. Jonathan Nott conducted the Bamberg orchestra in Ives’s The Unanswered Question and proceeded to Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony just like that, attacca. The effect was mesmerising... :)

Rattle and Berlin PO did that with Sibelius 6th and 7th a few years back, both pieces played the second half of the concert with virtually no break between them which allowed for no applause.

Offline schnittkease

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 192
  • Location: Portland, OR
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11776 on: August 13, 2018, 10:56:02 PM »
By any chance, have the Quatuor mosaïques' Haydn recordings been released as a complete box set? And if so, how do I go about getting my grubby hands on them?

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 13107
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11777 on: August 14, 2018, 12:39:37 AM »
If I understand what you're saying he did there, it was actually similar to what Haydn did in The Creation: the 'overture' comes to a close and there we are, singing about 'Let there be Light'. That is a nicely done touch, I like it!  :)

8)

Thanks for the clarification Gurn and how interesting. Also I was v interested to read the posts below about the Ives/Schubert and Sibelius 'morphings'. A totally new concept to me. I remember with Colin Matthews's addition of 'Pluto' to Holst's Planets Suite (not a good idea in my view, especially as Pluto subsequently lost its planet status) at the end the Matthews addition fades back into 'Neptune' which I did like.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline aukhawk

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 779
  • Frankie
  • Location: England
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bach to Björk
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11778 on: August 14, 2018, 01:58:50 AM »
Rattle and Berlin PO did that with Sibelius 6th and 7th a few years back, both pieces played the second half of the concert with virtually no break between them which allowed for no applause.

I've got a recording of Rattle doing that, at a televised concert in London.  There is a 5 second silence between the dying-away of the 6th and the opening tymp roll of the 7th, with the audience obviously well primed to keep schtum because there is quite a lot of coughing during the music itself, but I have visions of somebody leaning across and gagging the cougher for the required 5 seconds.   ;D

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 51179
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11779 on: August 14, 2018, 02:01:07 AM »
Thanks for the clarification Gurn and how interesting. Also I was v interested to read the posts below about the Ives/Schubert and Sibelius 'morphings'. A totally new concept to me. I remember with Colin Matthews's addition of 'Pluto' to Holst's Planets Suite (not a good idea in my view, especially as Pluto subsequently lost its planet status) at the end the Matthews addition fades back into 'Neptune' which I did like.

That is a case where IMO it would not be right, not to let Holst have the last word.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot