Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 690918 times)

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Steve

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2007, 06:02:23 PM »
Steve - let me pose a question since your thread beings w/ 'Haydn's London Symphonies...' - can we assume that recommendations on these works (whether 'modern' or HIP) is the main purpose of this thread?  If so, great!  I have one set of the London Symphonies w/ Colin Davis (a couple of bargin Philips Duos) - no big problem for a 'modern' set; but would like to have more recommendations, esp. potential HIP performances which seem pretty non-existent (have plenty of HIP discs of earlier symphonies, though); so, what's the verdict?  Thanks -  :D

Right now, I'm looking for excellent HIP recordings of these London Symphonies. The Adam Fischer was just the first that I am going to review. While comments specific to this recording are welcome, other HIP recommendations would be appreciated as well. Thanks for your comment.  :)

DavidW

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2007, 06:20:11 PM »
Right now, I'm looking for excellent HIP recordings of these London Symphonies. The Adam Fischer was just the first that I am going to review. While comments specific to this recording are welcome, other HIP recommendations would be appreciated as well. Thanks for your comment.  :)

Fischer is not HIP, in fact he ridicules HIP in the liner notes to the complete set! :D

You know I don't think I've heard any HIP recordings of the London Symphonies.  I've heard Bruggen in the Paris Symphonies, but nothing HIP in the Londons.

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2007, 06:25:11 PM »
I have 94, 95 & 101-104 with Collegum Musicum 90 / Hickox. I will give them another listen (it's been 6 months or so) and get back to you on it. :)

8)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2007, 06:34:38 PM by Gurn Blanston »
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Offline Bunny

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2007, 07:17:04 PM »
Fischer is not HIP, in fact he ridicules HIP in the liner notes to the complete set! :D

You know I don't think I've heard any HIP recordings of the London Symphonies. I've heard Bruggen in the Paris Symphonies, but nothing HIP in the Londons.

Sigiswald Kuijken has recorded them with La Petite Bande.  It's a Japanese release, but it's available at Amazon and ArkivMusic.  I was listening to them the other day and they are very satisfying.

Christopher Hogwood also recorded some of them with the Academy of Ancient Music.  I'm sure that more will be coming out soon as 2009 is the 300th anniversary of Haydn's death.



Offline Daverz

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2007, 07:22:06 PM »
The London symphonies were among the first that Fischer and his band recorded.  It took them a few years to find their groove, and for Nimbus to figure out how to record them in that hall.  Or at least so say the reviews I've read; I haven't made it that far in the set.  :-[

Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2007, 10:57:16 PM »
The Fischer set is an excellent value if you want a full cycle (and I do, of course). I also have the Nimbus (rather than the same set on Brilliant) and the liner notes are worth having, they are really quite handy.

Of course I would rather have a HIP set, but there isn't one, so why complain about it?  You can piece together (at great expense) a HIP cycle that has about 3/4 of the symphonies, but it isn't the same, is it? You get one conductor's (and one band's) take on the whole cycle here, and it is a pretty darn good one too. The London set was recorded first, and as such is probably the weakest. Which is not the same as saying "it sucks". But there is a lot of competition out there in that repertoire, and if you are bothered by that, you can always upgrade just those very nicely.

And the sound is good too, I might add, which hasn't been my experience with the few Dorati disks I have (6, 7 & 8 and the Paris Symphonies).

In short, if it is your intent to purchase a full cycle, you won't do better than this. :)

8)

I never said my friend that it sucks or was not excellent value, since I have the complete set I am satisfied with it, but as you said yourself the London set was first recorded, and is in my view the weakest, plodding minuets and allegro/Presto that are doing the same. Effect scoring is what Fischer does at the price of the musical integrity IMO. And the recordings are not that good as in the later sessions. So I felt a little complaining in its place, and certainly if it comes to a HIP recording, complaining helps to digest the absence. :) And you are right about the Dorati set, the sound is not always that good too.

Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2007, 10:59:21 PM »
Fischer is not HIP, in fact he ridicules HIP in the liner notes to the complete set! :D

You know I don't think I've heard any HIP recordings of the London Symphonies.  I've heard Bruggen in the Paris Symphonies, but nothing HIP in the Londons.

Fischer later changed this view though! :)

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2007, 12:14:17 AM »
Sigiswald Kuijken has recorded them with La Petite Bande.  It's a Japanese release, but it's available at Amazon and ArkivMusic.  I was listening to them the other day and they are very satisfying.

At $61.49 for 4 CDs, the ArkivMusic price, it damn well ought to be satisfying.  Szell/Cleveland recorded the first 6 Londons, and they were issued on CD, but there are hard to find these days.  I would recommend the Jochum set as a generally satisfying and interpretively moderate set.  Another good set of some of them is a Klemperer box; this is BIG, old fashioned, full orchestra Haydn, but he does divide 1st and 2nd violins, which is a big point in their favor.  And his Sym 102 will just make you jump out of your seat.

I haven't heard the Solti set.  Has anyone here heard it?  I am thinking about maybe getting it.
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Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2007, 12:34:08 AM »
I was thinking of buying the complete Fischer set from Brilliant, but I was put off by the reviews of the London symphonies.    They were
the first ones in the series to be recorded, and the engineers had not mastered the reverberant acoustics of the concert room.  The result is a fuzzy sound.  Also, I think nothing special in the interpretations.

Isn't the Bruggen set HIP ?     I though he used old instruments.     I don't have the set and have seen mixed reviews for it.    I believe
that it was recorded live from concert performances.      But this set may be the only answer if HIP is the overriding criterion.

I have the Harnoncourt set.     Not HIP, but extremely well recorded with everything nice and clear, transparent and balanced.    The interpretations are generally excellent ...... Harnoncourt is incapable of being dull and I really find him in-tune with this witty, sophisticated, beautiful and often dramatic music.     I would say that there are no weak links in this set ..... Harnoncourt occasionally goes a little over the top, but I get a lot of pleasure from each and every disc, and I also discovered a lot.        I would say that numbers 100 and 102 receive exceptional performances, but the rest are close behind.
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Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2007, 12:40:58 AM »
Don't make the mistake of condemning the Fischer box on Brilliant.
First of all the London symphonies are fine. The reverberation is not as bad, and no fuzzy sound, just Fischer blowing the orchestra to somewhat big proportions. Interpretations are on the whole better as any others I heard, including Dorati.
And the rest of the set is excellent, the best there is IMO. Also the sound!

Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2007, 02:12:26 AM »
Hi Harry,

You have the Fischer set?      What would you say are the high and low points?       Can you make any comparisons with other versions?
It costs less than 100 euros for ALL the symphonies, and I almost bought it.
I am happy with my sets of Paris and London symphonies, so I am really looking for the best versions of the middle-period symphs,
say mid-20's up to 81.     
I have the full Dorati set, but on LP.       A comparison between Fischer and Dorati would be great.

It's my birthday soon, so I need to start lobbying soon ......  ;D
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
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Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2007, 02:30:34 AM »
Hi Harry,

You have the Fischer set?      What would you say are the high and low points?       Can you make any comparisons with other versions?
It costs less than 100 euros for ALL the symphonies, and I almost bought it.
I am happy with my sets of Paris and London symphonies, so I am really looking for the best versions of the middle-period symphs,
say mid-20's up to 81.     
I have the full Dorati set, but on LP.       A comparison between Fischer and Dorati would be great.

It's my birthday soon, so I need to start lobbying soon ......  ;D

Lets say from Symphony No. 1-88, there is no problem at all, the best performances you could wish, both in sound and in interpretation!
My principal concern is with 89-103, but the problem is not that big, that I would not buy it again.
Not sound, because that is good! But those were recorded first, and Fischer was clearly searching the right mould. You can hear that mostly in the menuets, very stiff upper collar, as with all the menuets from Dorati. And he tends to take the Allegro's and Presto to slow, not always mind, but he does. Furthermore, he just wants to be grand in the name symphonies, and that tends to sound somewhat overblown.
So reading your wishes, Fischer would do just fine.

That said the Fischer set is a must for all Haydn admirers, and I would not like to be without it.
Have the Dorati set too, and that is also a must for me!

Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2007, 03:01:00 AM »
Thanks Harry.

Since my point of reference is Dorati, would you say that Fischer's approach is similar or dissimilar (and if the latter, in which ways)?

Finally, an impossible question, but please try to answer ...... if you could only keep one out of Dorati and Fischer for 1-88  (I'm not too worried after this because I have several very satisfactory versions in the 89-104 zone, except, strangely no 103), which would it be ??

Best wishes
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Offline Grazioso

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2007, 03:22:09 AM »
For the London symphonies, try Jochum's DG set:



I was skeptical at first, assuming it might be plodding big-band Haydn. After having listened to the first disc so far, I can say my assumption was wrong. A big band, yes, but Jochum fully captures the verve, humor, and grace of Haydn's writing, and when Haydn writes "presto" or "vivace", Jochum fully obliges. These are sprightly allegros indeed. I'm eager to hear the rest of the set.
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Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2007, 03:28:11 AM »
Thanks Harry.

Since my point of reference is Dorati, would you say that Fischer's approach is similar or dissimilar (and if the latter, in which ways)?

Finally, an impossible question, but please try to answer ...... if you could only keep one out of Dorati and Fischer for 1-88  (I'm not too worried after this because I have several very satisfactory versions in the 89-104 zone, except, strangely no 103), which would it be ??

Best wishes

Fischers approach is similar to that of Dorati, but with three exceptions: Fischer adopts better speeds, is aware of the historical music practice, and finds more details in the score as Dorati does. Not dissimilar I would say, but a more tighter regime and discipline.

I definitively would keep Fischer. :)

Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2007, 03:30:32 AM »
Hi Harry,

You have the Fischer set?      What would you say are the high and low points?       Can you make any comparisons with other versions?
It costs less than 100 euros for ALL the symphonies, and I almost bought it.
I am happy with my sets of Paris and London symphonies, so I am really looking for the best versions of the middle-period symphs,
say mid-20's up to 81.     
I have the full Dorati set, but on LP.       A comparison between Fischer and Dorati would be great.

It's my birthday soon, so I need to start lobbying soon ......  ;D

I bought the Fischer set for 50 euro's.

Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2007, 03:42:17 AM »
Harry, where did you find the Fischer set for 50 euros ??   

Grazioso, the Jochum London's are one of the best sets and have a lot of enthusiastic followers.    I've heard some on the radio and as you say, they are full of life and spirit
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
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Harry

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2007, 03:46:44 AM »
In my local drugstore called Kruidvat and here, but slightly more expensive, 58,00 euro's

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4897680/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist

Offline alkan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2007, 03:52:17 AM »
Harry, thanks !

Hmmmm ..... 59 euros plus 8 for postage (I am in France) ....... 67 euros ...... not bad.     65 euro-cents per symphony !!

I am very tempted .......  :P
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2007, 03:55:41 AM »
I never said my friend that it sucks or was not excellent value, since I have the complete set I am satisfied with it, but as you said yourself the London set was first recorded, and is in my view the weakest, plodding minuets and allegro/Presto that are doing the same. Effect scoring is what Fischer does at the price of the musical integrity IMO. And the recordings are not that good as in the later sessions. So I felt a little complaining in its place, and certainly if it comes to a HIP recording, complaining helps to digest the absence. :) And you are right about the Dorati set, the sound is not always that good too.

Harry,
It may have seemed that I was directing that at you, but I wasn't. This set has been discussed in depth here before, and several people have said that the London's suck so bad that they wouldn't have the set. Which is not only untrue, but most unfortunate, since, as I said, they not only don't suck, they are merely the weakest in the set, and then, only in comparison to all the fine versions around.

I would love to see a complete HIP cycle, but it seems that every effort ends up beached. :'(

8)
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