Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 601712 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11200 on: January 11, 2017, 10:26:51 AM »
A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

That is an ambition!  Not an impossibility, but a worthy ambition.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11201 on: January 11, 2017, 12:13:22 PM »
Moved on to the quartet Op 76, No 2, again listening to Festetics and Aeolian in tandem. I am attracted to this quartet because it is in minor key. I find myself disappointed that minor key works are scarce in the classical period (although even major key works minor keys tend to be prominent in the middle movements). As in the previous work, I find both the Festetics and Aeolian equally satisfying, bring out the "spirited" vs "graceful" characteristics of the work.

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Minor keys weren't considered particularly emotionally special in the 18th century like they were to the Romantics. You can note that almost every single piece that opens in the minor nonetheless ends in the Major. It was a cultural imperative that works end on a happy note; at least, it was in Vienna. That's why you see Karl's Symphony #34 he was talking about above, the first 2 movements are in d minor but the Finale is in D Major.

Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios...    8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface!   :D

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11202 on: January 11, 2017, 12:38:07 PM »
A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Maybe not. I think I know most of Haydn's much better than Mozart's 11 early quartets ;)
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Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11203 on: January 11, 2017, 12:51:26 PM »
Maybe not. I think I know most of Haydn's much better than Mozart's 11 early quartets ;)

:D  Yep. I only know the d minor to any degree, even though I have two sets of them. Thanks for the reminder though. ;)

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Offline Scarpia

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11204 on: January 11, 2017, 01:51:29 PM »
Minor keys weren't considered particularly emotionally special in the 18th century like they were to the Romantics. You can note that almost every single piece that opens in the minor nonetheless ends in the Major. It was a cultural imperative that works end on a happy note; at least, it was in Vienna. That's why you see Karl's Symphony #34 he was talking about above, the first 2 movements are in d minor but the Finale is in D Major.

It is not that I regard minor-key works as "sad," but more complex, since there is the ambiguity of the 6th and 7th scale degrees to play with.

Quote
Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios...    8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface!   :D

8)

Now, don't depress me. These days I normally only have time to listen to a work one movement per day.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11205 on: January 11, 2017, 02:02:52 PM »
It is not that I regard minor-key works as "sad," but more complex, since there is the ambiguity of the 6th and 7th scale degrees to play with.

Now, don't depress me. These days I normally only have time to listen to a work one movement per day.

No, it's true, you may not regard them as sad or depressing, I know I don't. But the 19th century certainly did, and that goes a long way to shaping many people's perspective. All you have to do is read an older analysis of Mozart's g minor quintet to know what I mean!  ::)  Somewhere I read a quote from Mozart about just that thing, the extra complexity suited his creative.

I really think this is why a lot of people tend to pass by really prolific composers. My choice was to make a long-term commitment instead. The option is to compartmentalize, pick a specialty and go with it, which seems to be what you are doing. Sounds good to me! :)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11206 on: January 11, 2017, 02:47:21 PM »
Focus!  That's the ticket.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11207 on: January 12, 2017, 02:43:33 AM »
Together with the symphonies, for me the string quartets as a whole are the most important body of work.

This is not to deny that there are a few pieces in the other genres, like among the late masses, the piano trios and sonatas etc. that are more important than certain quartets or symphonies. But I consider basically all quartets from and including op.9 major works of both Haydn and the string quartet genre and I would not say this about quite a few of the earlyish piano sonatas. As it is difficult and probably moot to talk about the relative quality, a case can be made that the quartets seem to have been more systematically written at certain points in Haydn's career and development than anything else (again, this is also true of a few pieces in other genres, e.g. the Paris symphonies).
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11208 on: January 21, 2017, 07:04:41 PM »
Together with the symphonies, for me the string quartets as a whole are the most important body of work.

This is not to deny that there are a few pieces in the other genres, like among the late masses, the piano trios and sonatas etc. that are more important than certain quartets or symphonies. But I consider basically all quartets from and including op.9 major works of both Haydn and the string quartet genre and I would not say this about quite a few of the earlyish piano sonatas. As it is difficult and probably moot to talk about the relative quality, a case can be made that the quartets seem to have been more systematically written at certain points in Haydn's career and development than anything else (again, this is also true of a few pieces in other genres, e.g. the Paris symphonies).

The general consensus since Donald Tovey's time is that everything from Opus 20 forward was merely a different form of masterpiece. This is not to deny that Haydn learned new tricks in later years (you can safely interpret that as 'developed new ideas'), but as relative works to their time, they are each equally over and above whatever else is out there. There is no doubt in MY mind that they are his greatest contribution to music, but then, I prefer chamber music above all else. If I was an orchestral fan, then the symphonies would have higher stature.  :)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11209 on: January 22, 2017, 02:47:05 AM »
21 baryton trios

You mean 126, right?  :D
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Offline North Star

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11210 on: January 22, 2017, 03:07:13 AM »
You mean 126, right?  :D
Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something. :D
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11211 on: January 22, 2017, 03:28:41 AM »
Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something. :D

Yes, my bad, I didn't read the whole thing.
Delight and liberty, the simple creed of childhood. - William Wordsworth

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11212 on: January 22, 2017, 07:06:00 AM »
You mean 126, right?  :D
Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something. :D

21 CD's of any genre is a pretty good chunk. I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing (except me, of course). It is uniformly good, but occasionally great. I can't think how he managed to keep his own interest level up across such a span of works. Did he ever discuss with Weigl, his cellist for these works, or even with the Prince "what next, lads?". They are no oeuvre to match the string quartets, or the symphonies for that matter, but so few other things are... :)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11213 on: January 22, 2017, 07:28:40 AM »
I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing (except me, of course).

I have the entire Brilliant Edition but have not listened to one single baryton CD yet.  ::)

What I have listened to instead is this:



which I highly recommend.

Delight and liberty, the simple creed of childhood. - William Wordsworth

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11214 on: January 22, 2017, 07:46:32 AM »
I have the entire Brilliant Edition but have not listened to one single baryton CD yet.  ::)

What I have listened to instead is this:



which I highly recommend.

Yes, I streamed that disk once and enjoyed it too, although it wasn't available over here for sale at the time. I wanted to hear the Tomasini.

If you would like to listen to some of that without hurting yourself, I recommend the 2 disks of Octets. Smashing good music, and they are joined by Piccolo Concerto Wien and some truly great hornists. It is only nominally baryton music, although you can clearly hear the baryton, it is really horn music. :)

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11215 on: January 22, 2017, 09:31:22 AM »
I only have about two anthology discs with baryton trios (one on cpo with Geringas, the other one actually with string trio arrangements (i.e. without a baryton) on alpha), and two containing some of the octets (one volume with Huss and the "deLirium" disc with Quatuor Mosaiques and others) and decided that this is enough for now. I might get the second Huss disc eventually for two missing octets or quintets or so, but I am pretty sure that I am not going to listen to 21 discs of trios. (Similar arguments apply to the Scottish/Irish/etc. folksongs, except that I ended up with about 5 discs of them.)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11216 on: January 24, 2017, 05:23:38 AM »
From Playing Before the Lord: The Life and Work of Joseph Haydn, by Calvin Stapert:

As early as 1768, Johann Adam Hiller had written that Haydn's music was a "curious mixture of the noble and the common, the serious and the comic, which so often occurs in one of the same movement."

Who'd have thought that Haydn's true heir was Mahler:D :D :D
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11217 on: January 24, 2017, 07:40:36 AM »
From Playing Before the Lord: The Life and Work of Joseph Haydn, by Calvin Stapert:

As early as 1768, Johann Adam Hiller had written that Haydn's music was a "curious mixture of the noble and the common, the serious and the comic, which so often occurs in one of the same movement."

Who'd have thought that Haydn's true heir was Mahler:D :D :D

Quick note, on my way to a meeting: that's a very good book, I quite enjoy it. The point Stapert is making there, maybe not surprisingly, is exactly the very thing which garnered Haydn the most criticism in his lifetime. The North German critics, Hiller being one of the milder ones, savaged him over it, and what resistance there was in Vienna, from the likes of Joseph II and his coterie, stemmed from that also.  And yet, today this is the attraction of his music for many of us. :)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11218 on: January 24, 2017, 07:42:34 AM »
Ahead of his time!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11219 on: January 24, 2017, 08:44:13 AM »
I recall to have read about the hypothesis that Haydn included three learned fugues (with particular effect like inversion etc.) in op.20 because some earlier pieces had been criticized for taking too many liberties and a too folksy style, so he wanted to demonstrate that he did not lack such skills.
(Admittedly, I don't quite understand how the "North Germans" could accept CPE Bach as their leading composer but become irritated by early Haydn...)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

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