Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 928107 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17289
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11240 on: April 29, 2017, 07:21:41 AM »
There are two other marches (Hob VIII:3 and Hob VIII3 bis) on the second disc of this box:





"I compose music because I must give utterance to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts." --- Sergei Rachmaninoff

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11241 on: April 29, 2017, 07:36:50 AM »
There are two other marches (Hob VIII:3 and Hob VIII3 bis) on the second disc of this box:



Yes, and they are excellent recordings too. I wish Huss had done a whole disk of marches (and dances). #3 is the Prince of Wales march mentioned a bit ago. 3bis is a reorchestration of it that Haydn did for the Royal Society of Musicians, he added several parts so it could be performed on stage by a chamber-sized orchestra. Other than the other disk I mentioned, and this one here, march recordings by orchestra are pretty darned hard to find!  :-\  I think the whole bunch are available as piano reductions though, by Brautigam and Oort certainly, and probably several others who don't leap to mind right now. Same with dances, even ones that have available orchestral scores. :(

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11242 on: May 21, 2017, 05:31:23 AM »
Things been quiet in da Haus!  ???

Meantime, I've been touring the Scottish Highlands and the mountains of Transylvania and just having a great time. Did you know that 18th century Londoners believed the Highlanders were cannibals? Strewth! Well, I couldn't provoke that behavior, but I did have a nice time. Here's what I discovered.

Dr. Haydn's Exotic Music Revue

Check it out!
Thanks,
8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 51613
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11243 on: May 24, 2017, 02:19:25 AM »
Things been quiet in da Haus!  ???

Aye  8)

Another post of yours reminds me that it is probably time that I revisit the Van Swieten Trio . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11244 on: May 24, 2017, 03:23:25 AM »
Aye  8)

Another post of yours reminds me that it is probably time that I revisit the Van Swieten Trio . . . .

Always a worthwhile endeavor. I didn't traverse the cycle, but a goodly portion of it. Underrated. :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 22069
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11245 on: May 24, 2017, 06:37:40 AM »
Dr. Haydn's Exotic Music Revue
Check it out!

The Austro-Hungarian army certainly had a novel way of recruiting! Thank god I didn't have to dance with my Captain and First Sergeant when I was a recruiter  ;D

As always, Gurn, your latest post was a good and informative read.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11246 on: May 24, 2017, 07:20:47 AM »
The Austro-Hungarian army certainly had a novel way of recruiting! Thank god I didn't have to dance with my Captain and First Sergeant when I was a recruiter  ;D

As always, Gurn, your latest post was a good and informative read.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. I also found it fascinating. One thing about writing on the history of a subject (any subject, really) is the tremendous number of things you discover that you never even suspected. There are some Youtubes of moderns doing these dances, Romanians actually, and they are pretty amazing. I got tired out just watching them!  :D

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 51613
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11247 on: May 24, 2017, 07:48:59 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hi-U-6IhO4M" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Hi-U-6IhO4M</a>
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17289
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11248 on: May 24, 2017, 07:56:37 AM »
Btw, Gurn

Quote from: Gurn Blanston
I often take Grove as gospel

In this case you shouldn't. They state that

Quote from:  New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians
Before the Austro-Hungarian imperial army instituted conscription in 1849

This is a mistake oftenly done, but for their academic level it is really inexcusable. The historical truth is that before 1867, the year the Emperor of Austria was also proclaimed King of Hungary, resulting in the creation of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, there was no Austro-Hungarian army. In 1849 there was only the Austrian imperial army.

The chronology is as follows:

800? -1806 The Holy Roman Empire
1804 -1867 The Austrian Empire
1867 -1918 The Austro-Hungarian Empire

"I compose music because I must give utterance to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts." --- Sergei Rachmaninoff

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11249 on: May 24, 2017, 08:01:53 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hi-U-6IhO4M" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Hi-U-6IhO4M</a>

Thanks, Karl. One of the few skills at GMG that I seem unable to master... :-\

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11250 on: May 24, 2017, 08:04:37 AM »
Btw, Gurn

In this case you shouldn't. They state that

This is a mistake oftenly done, but for their academic level it is really inexcusable. The historical truth is that before 1867, the year the Emperor of Austria was also proclaimed King of Hungary, resulting in the creation of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, there was no Austro-Hungarian army. In 1849 there was only the Austrian imperial army.

The chronology is as follows:

800? -1806 The Holy Roman Empire
1804 -1867 The Austrian Empire
1867 -1918 The Austro-Hungarian Empire

Yes, you are very correct, although I couldn't change their quoted text. I did, however, point out that it was the Esterházy's that hired their own Hussars/Gypsies. Grove's expertise doesn't really extend far beyond music, and is not all-encompassing, even there. But I have a million dollars invested in them (gross exaggeration), so I have to use them sometimes. :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 17289
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11251 on: May 24, 2017, 08:17:30 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/user/RomanianFolkDances/search?query=barbuncul

The first six videos present bărbuncul, which is the Romanian version of verbunkos both as a dance and as a word.
"I compose music because I must give utterance to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts." --- Sergei Rachmaninoff

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 51613
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11252 on: May 24, 2017, 08:19:24 AM »
Thanks, Karl. One of the few skills at GMG that I seem unable to master... :-\

8)

I just keep it as a text string, and copy for pasting as needed  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11253 on: May 24, 2017, 08:24:37 AM »
I just keep it as a text string, and copy for pasting as needed  8)

Hmmmm... :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11254 on: June 05, 2017, 04:29:26 PM »
I am finally listening to the Dorati set of FJH's operas.  Looking over the track listings, I noticed an oddity:  in those operas which have three acts, the third act is much shorter than than the other two.  For instance, now I am listening to La Fedelta Premiata, which is about 2 hours 45 minutes in length. Act III is fifteen minutes long, meaning 1/11th of the opera.

Does anyone know the reason for this imbalance?

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11255 on: June 05, 2017, 04:33:54 PM »
I am finally listening to the Dorati set of FJH's operas.  Looking over the track listings, I noticed an oddity:  in those operas which have three acts, the third act is much shorter than than the other two.  For instance, now I am listening to La Fedelta Premiata, which is about 2 hours 45 minutes in length. Act III is fifteen minutes long, meaning 1/11th of the opera.

Does anyone know the reason for this imbalance?

I did some looking around on that subject when I first got into the operas a few years ago, what I was able to discover is that it was pretty much a standard thing for operas at the time to have a very short final act. I can't remember reading that there was a particular reason for it, just that it was like a coda at the end. I'll go back and see if I can find where I read that. I can say that it wasn't only Haydn's operas though, it was Italian operas in general.

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11256 on: June 05, 2017, 04:54:48 PM »
Almost all of Haydn's operas were of a form called dramma giocoso. This form is not like an opera seria (Armida was his only true opera seria), it is a mix between that and comic opera, opera buffa. This form was pioneered by Carlo Goldoni, among others. Haydn set at least 3 Goldoni operas, Le pescatrici, Lo speziale and Il mondo della luna. Up until his very last few operas, all of them were dramma giocoso, and all of them followed the pattern set by Goldoni. I steal this line from Wikipedia, although it isn't the first place I read it, just the easiest to find:

Quote
Dramma giocoso (Italian, literally: drama with jokes; plural: drammi giocosi) is a genre of opera common in the mid-18th century. The term is a contraction of dramma giocoso per musica and describes the opera's libretto (text). The genre developed in the Neapolitan opera tradition, mainly through the work of the playwright Carlo Goldoni in Venice. A dramma giocoso characteristically used a grand buffo (comic or farce) scene as a dramatic climax at the end of an act. Goldoni's texts always consisted of two long acts with extended finales, followed by a short third act. Composers Baldassare Galuppi, Niccolò Piccinni, and Joseph Haydn set Goldoni's texts to music.

Anyway, that's a start. :)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11257 on: June 05, 2017, 05:14:15 PM »
Thanks.

Perhaps Italian audiences expected a ballet or punchinella to round out the bill? Or wanted to get to the casino by 11 PM?

Offline Gurn Blanston

  • Haydn: that genius of vulgar music who induces an inordinate thirst for beer - Mily Balakirev (1860)
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 31450
  • Support your local Haydn Society
    • Gurn's Haydn Blog
  • Location: Texas, where else?
  • Currently Listening to:
    Haydn, I reckon.
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11258 on: June 05, 2017, 05:18:56 PM »
Thanks.

Perhaps Italian audiences expected a ballet or punchinella to round out the bill? Or wanted to get to the casino by 11 PM?

:D  Perhaps all those things. Well, not the ballet, IIRC, that's a French thing. One doesn't automatically seize on the fact that the librettist was really in control of that sort of thing. Anyway, something like 8 or 9 out of 13 operas by Haydn were dramma giocoso. I think the Prince liked them. ;)

8)
Help support GMG by purchasing from Amazon using this link

Visit my Haydn blog: HaydnSeek

Follow me on Twitter @GurnBlanston106

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11259 on: June 07, 2017, 05:31:54 PM »
Continuing with my traversal of Dorati's recording of the Esterhazy operas, tonight I am listening to La Vera Constanza, and I am very much reminded of a certain dude named Wolfgang as I listened, for the first time in this set.
Which made me wonder how much of Mozart's output would Haydn have known.  So I turned to Wikipedia for dates, and found this
Quote
The work was written for the Eszterházy court and first performed on 25 April 1779. It was revived there in April 1785 when Haydn apparently had to re-create much of the opera from memory, the original having been largely lost. It was given in Bratislava, Budapest, Vienna and Brno between 1786 and 1792 under the title Der flatterhafte Liebhaber.

Now, in 1779 Mozart was probably not very much on Haydn's radar.  But by 1785 the two had met, and Mozart had written the first two of his operas which are heard with at least some regularity today: Idomeneo and Abduction from the Seraglio. Plus of many of the piano concertos and symphonies and chamber music.

So now I have a double question

First, was the original score "largely lost" as Wikipedia says.
Second, how faithful a reproduction of the original was Haydn's 1785 version?  Might he have rewritten it and used some Mozartian influence picked up in the intervening years?

Even the Wikipedia article picks up on the Mozartian tinge
Quote
Haydn's finales for Acts 1 and 2 aspire to the Mozartian ideal in their attention to details of textual structure, characterization, location and stage events, pointing to Haydn’s capable dramatic technique.

 

Don't Like These Ads? Become a GMG Subscriber!
For as little as 14 cents per day, subscribers get no advertising on the forum, a larger Inbox for your PM's, and a warm glow of knowing you are supporting the forum. All this and a groovy Subscriber badge too!
Click here to read more.