Another Perspective On Suicide

[Operahaven]

Most of the people I've spoken with over the years believe that suicide is okay if it is self-enacted euthanasia, a response to physical pain, but not as a response to emotional pain which would then be considered "selfish" and/or "stupid".

Why do we assume emotional pain to have little importance in comparison ? This ideal leads to the conclusion that rape should be punished according only to the physical injuries sustained. When someone commits suicide, it is for one of two reasons:

1) death was not intentional; it was a cry for help.

2) the suicidal decides that death would be better than life.

Dismissing emotional pain as trivial or transient is therefore a mistake; the person in best place to judge considers it overwhelming, and who ever chooses such a final solution to a transient problem? Suicidals do not consider their problems transient... If it can be the right decision for one in physical pain, maybe it is sometimes the right decision for those in psychological pain. As for those who don't consider a person's life their own property, to do with as they wish, I challenge them to justify this perspective without falling back on religious dogma or a functionalist societal view that disregards the wellbeing of human beings.

Also, suicide isn't "surrendering" or taking the easy way out. I would hardly call killing yourself easy. In my opinion, it takes a lot of courage to commit suicide. Whether it be shooting yourself or jumping to your death or breathing in carbon monoxide.

If people have the guts to jump to their death or to shoot themselves or to breath in toxic gases then they must have the courage to continue life, right ?

To conclude: Suicide is always an extreme choice, but not necessarily a 'selfish' one and certainly not 'stupid' and certainly not morally 'wrong'.

[Saul]

Judaism considers suicide as murder and who ever kills himself is a murderer.

[Ephemerid]

Good post, Operahaven. 

Also, suicide isn't "surrendering" or taking the easy way out. I would hardly call killing yourself easy. In my opinion, it takes a lot of courage to commit suicide. Whether it be shooting yourself or jumping to your death or breathing in carbon monoxide.

I used to think this myself, until a few years ago I felt suicidal myself.  I managed to work through the pain (the temptation to commit suicide lasted me for a whole year).  No one who hasn't gone through that sort of affliction has the right to judge that individual.  I never had the courage to do it, but I had considered it very seriously during that time. 

Oddly enough, it was by reading E.M. Cioran that largely helped me put things in perspective and I endured through it.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to anyone however! 

[paulb]

Judaism considers suicide as murder and who ever kills himself is a murderer.

and so does christianity, at least the *official brand*.
Both judiam and traditional christianity is sooooo OUTDATED in YET ANOTHER critical aspect of life.
The government has ABSOLUETLY no right to interfer with medical assisted life termination.
Neither does religion.
Ifa   person is in critical pain and terminally ill/life support sytem, that individual has a  GOD GIVEN right to choose how he best wishes to leave this ROTTEN PLANET.

Saul, you never answer my questions.
Look back on page 14 of the "dumb/dumber" topic.
There i ask which other culture other than the germans killing off Nietzsche, do we find this betrayal of murderiing their greatest prophet and setting up a  false prophet.
the germans slew Nietzsche and flocked after Hitler.
Now which other culture do find find this event?

the greeks? yes, of course.
Any others?

[Lethevich]

I used to think this myself, until a few years ago I felt suicidal myself.  I managed to work through the pain (the temptation to commit suicide lasted me for a whole year).  No one who hasn't gone through that sort of affliction has the right to judge that individual.  I never had the courage to do it, but I had considered it very seriously during that time.

Do you have close friends/family? Due to not wanting to be medicated for my depression, I've found myself extremely down at times, but was never able to think of anything like that due to how terrible it would make my friends and family feel - that was always an overriding motivation not to do anything silly, for me, anyway.

[Josquin des Prez]

Suicide is morally wrong insofar as it dodges the responsibility an individual has for his/her family/community, which in turn has a responsibility for the welfare of the individual in question. When society at large embraces petty individualism and selfishness and family unit dissipates then the moral dimension simply disappear.

[sidoze]

E.M. Cioran

thanks for this. I'm going to read some of his work now

[Operahaven]

Suicide is morally wrong insofar as it dodges the responsibility an individual has for his/her family/community, which in turn has a responsibility for the welfare of the individual in question.

Hmm, I'm not sure how it violates a duty to the community.

I think it was David Hume who said that:

"Suicide cannot be a crime against the community because being a hermit is not wrong and suicide just takes this withdrawal from society one step further..."

[Ephemerid]

Do you have close friends/family? Due to not wanting to be medicated for my depression, I've found myself extremely down at times, but was never able to think of anything like that due to how terrible it would make my friends and family feel - that was always an overriding motivation not to do anything silly, for me, anyway.

I am not very close with my family and at the time I had no friends to turn to (or rather, perhaps I could have, but didn't during that time).  Though part of my "logic" at the time was that I was more a "burden" to everyone else and I thought (again, in my own depressed "logic" at the time) the world without me would be an improvement.  It was only later that I began to acknowledge that I would have devastated my family and friends. 

What got me through it was sheer emotional exhaustion (I used to contemplate my death frequently during that time: at work, driving, lying in bed, everyday routines), and only after enduring though that strange time I was able to look at things with a better perspective and realise how much pain I was in and sorted it all out, what I was going through and why.  It was pure hell. 

[paulb]

Suicide is morally wrong insofar as it dodges the responsibility an individual has for his/her family/community, which in turn has a responsibility for the welfare of the individual in question. When society at large embraces petty individualism and selfishness and family unit dissipates then the moral dimension simply disappear.

this is a   great post.

Correct, the current increase in the number of suicides, especially among the teens, is a  result of absolute breakdown of the family unit fabric.
In many homes, its everyman for himself. And its going to get worse.
I see in the faces of many a  youth, despair.
btw , sometimes when a  person talks incessantly about the desire to die/commit suicide, sometimes their path ends up with *accidental death*.
I've seen this several times.
The human will is mysterious like that.

I realzied teen suicide is a real concern, last yr. But when I went to google info, there were scant articles..
This is a  censorship of the 'powers that be", they do not want the truth to be known.
And a  few days after i mentioned to a  friend this subject, low and behold, as ALWAYS with me (synchronicity), a  public announcement comes on a  local radio announcement  talking about *if you know some teen who is contemplating suicide call this number"

This issue is never in the papers, all you read in the obituaries, is that so and so passed away.

The churches, *God forbid* would never talk about this subject.

[Norbeone]

This issue has always interested me, yet I still have no concrete feelings on the matter. I think it is both courageous and cowardly to commit suicide, with the degree of each depending on the individual's own circumstances. That is as far as I have gotten so far, I think.

[Ephemerid]

thanks for this. I'm going to read some of his work now

Truly, I don't recommend Cioran-- he's misanthropic in the extreme and his cynicism is downright monstrous.  He can be witty sometimes in his own black humour way, but its definitely not very happy reading.  --this is a man whom Samuel Beckett thought too depressing!

There are other ways of coping-- I just didn't feel I had anyone to turn to at the time. 

[paulb]

This issue has always interested me, yet I still have no concrete feelings on the matter. I think it is both courageous and cowardly to commit suicide, with the degree of each depending on the individual's own circumstances. That is as far as I have gotten so far, I think.

sometimes just before the person is naer the act, whether intentioanlly , or *accidentally wlled*, there is some act of *salvation*, something new gives birth.
The hanging on part is not so easy. And for some, that ray of hope never comes, they've been *dealt a  bad hand*.

Recall how the british would march forward in the American Independence revolution, to the beat of drums and just walk in file , easy shooting targets.
that to me is partly  a  urge for suicide.

[c#minor]

I am not very close with my family and at the time I had no friends to turn to (or rather, perhaps I could have, but didn't during that time).  Though part of my "logic" at the time was that I was more a "burden" to everyone else and I thought (again, in my own depressed "logic" at the time) the world without me would be an improvement. 
 

That was my logic for quite a while. I am actually a "chronically depressed" and can never really stop my medication or i will go into a full relapse, it's happened before so don't ever discontinue medication without docs recommendations. But that was my logic for a while. It was a situation where i felt i should just put my car into a tree on my drive to school ever day. I think the only thing that kept me going was A. my music, and more so B. i did not have the emotional energy to really think it through.

What i have come to see on the other side of things now that i have been evened out for a good while is that suicide is not chosen by the "selfish" though the people left on earth with the pain might only be able to see that. Suicide comes from a "defeatist" mentality. It could come from clinical issues or other issues. The staple of "immoral" is not what i would want to call suicide, rather unfortunate. The people who do decide to take their own life do not give themselves a chance for happiness. I think immoral should not be the word because that person that does take their own life was very troubled, more troubled than obviously any of us who are living ever have been.

[Ephemerid]

The people who do decide to take their own life do not give themselves a chance for happiness. I think immoral should not be the word because that person that does take their own life was very troubled, more troubled than obviously any of us who are living ever have been.

I think you stated that perfectly, C#minor.

[Don]

I don't put a morality tag on suicide.  In the abstract, it's fine with me if somebody ends his/her life.  Unfortunately, there's a great deal of emotional suffering that the loved ones go through. 

This thread's a downer. 

[Hector]

Suicide is morally wrong insofar as it dodges the responsibility an individual has for his/her family/community, which in turn has a responsibility for the welfare of the individual in question. When society at large embraces petty individualism and selfishness and family unit dissipates then the moral dimension simply disappear.

The usual ignorant bollocks that suggests little or no understanding of the mindset of the suicide or potential suicide.

However, those of you who are Christians, still, out there remember suicide is sooo wrong and you will not be buried in consecrated ground and your soul will spend an Eternity in Hell ... which is a helluva long time.

Get a friend to do it

[knight66]

Eric,

"Most of the people I've spoken with over the years believe that suicide is okay if it is self-enacted euthanasia, a response to physical pain, but not as a response to emotional pain which would then be considered "selfish" and/or "stupid"."

This is a new one on me if it is a prevalent attitude. I think people can understand it more easily if the pain is physical and evidently incapacitating; but I have not much encountered this negativity towards people who can't manage to sustain the emotional pain.

I used to work in a counselling service for people who felt suicidal. Most of the people who phoned and visited us were not suicidal. But dealing with those who were; meant respecting their choices. Very occasionally it was about being a voice to someone as they ebb away, but don't want to die alone.

I would not judge someone who steps off the escalator. But, it does leave an awful legacy behind it. As was said, it is often the people left behind who simply never really recover. It is often they who cannot forgive or who feel at bottom the person who has gone is selfish.

Grief can of course be regret at a life cut short, but often it is an understandable selfishness; in that we are left with a sense of loss and will miss the person who is no longer there.

Mike

[маразм1]

I tried it once.  Stupid me!  But I survived. 
I swallowed ... a like 1/3 of a big jar of aspirins. 
I was deaf the next day...and very very sick...

That taught me a very good lesson. 
d.

[Operahaven]

Thanks for sharing that Mike.

Here is a good explanation of the 10 characteristics:

http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/understanding.shtml