Author Topic: The unimportant news thread  (Read 304751 times)

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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2900 on: April 15, 2019, 10:57:13 AM »
A number of officials are now saying they are not sure they will be able to save the cathedral.
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Offline LKB

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2901 on: April 15, 2019, 10:58:18 AM »
I was there in 1983, and it is ( was?  :( ) one of the most impressive structures I've ever visited.

I've read in the news that many of the more important artifacts have been rescued, but it seems a poor outlook for the cathedral overall...

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LKB
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Offline André

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2902 on: April 15, 2019, 11:16:41 AM »
An incalculable loss. No amount of money spent on an eventual reconstruction will make up for 800 years of history gone up in flames.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2903 on: April 15, 2019, 11:29:38 AM »
An incalculable loss. No amount of money spent on an eventual reconstruction will make up for 800 years of history gone up in flames.

Not to mention the time required. If they undertake to rebuild using authentic construction methods it could take 100 years. The Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in New York was started in 1892 and is still under construction.

Offline Ken B

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2904 on: April 15, 2019, 11:48:00 AM »
From the location it looks like it might be linked to the renovation. I wonder if there was “cost cutting “ in re fire safety. There was a notable reluctance on the part of the government to provide funds, so much of the money was raised privately.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2905 on: April 15, 2019, 12:08:03 PM »
From the location it looks like it might be linked to the renovation. I wonder if there was “cost cutting “ in re fire safety. There was a notable reluctance on the part of the government to provide funds, so much of the money was raised privately.

Every news report seems to be laying blame on the renovations.

It if, of course, the fate of the government to be blamed for excessive safety regulations and outrageous expenditures, unless something goes wrong, in which case they are blamed for lax safety measures and skimping.

A lot of confusing reporting. In the photos I have come across all of the smoke and flame seems to be above the level of the vaulted ceiling. I do not entirely give up hope that the main part of the structure will survive.

Online Jo498

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2906 on: April 15, 2019, 12:34:58 PM »
It seems now that the main structure can be saved. But this is an incredible disaster. I don't remember anything like it.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
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Online Papy Oli

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2907 on: April 15, 2019, 12:50:25 PM »
This is heartbreaking... :(
Olivier

Offline amw

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2908 on: April 15, 2019, 01:12:18 PM »
It will be rebuilt but who knows how long that will take (esp with the same government that failed to cover the cost of repairs in the first place....and building cathedrals takes a while in general, my former local one has been under construction for 130 years)

No one seems to have been hurt or killed, and for Catholics, reports seem to indicate most of the priceless relics & artworks were able to be saved. It’s always sad when something like this happens though; a vast number of historic sites of great importance have been destroyed over the past 20~ years and it doesn’t get any easier when the culprit is negligence rather than, e.g., ISIS or Al-Qaeda or a natural disaster.

Offline Ken B

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2909 on: April 15, 2019, 02:12:39 PM »
Every news report seems to be laying blame on the renovations.

It if, of course, the fate of the government to be blamed for excessive safety regulations and outrageous expenditures, unless something goes wrong, in which case they are blamed for lax safety measures and skimping.

A lot of confusing reporting. In the photos I have come across all of the smoke and flame seems to be above the level of the vaulted ceiling. I do not entirely give up hope that the main part of the structure will survive.

The reports I have seen are a bit disconcertingly insistent it was an accident. They cannot know. Obviously an accident linked to the renovation has to be the obvious suspect, but no one can possibly know for sure.

France 24 interviewed one guy who said he did not understand how it could be still burning because it’s made of stone. I understand time constraints, but they couldn’t find anyone with any knowledge at all?  ::)
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline André

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2910 on: April 15, 2019, 02:49:10 PM »
There are dozens and dozens of huge cathedrals across Europe. St Peter’s, Salisbury, Exeter, Westminster, Ulm, Milan, Cologne, Vienna plus a dozen other Notre-Dames in France alone. I suspect emergency measures, fire protection and contingency plans, insurance quotes etc will be looked at in the coming weeks.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2911 on: April 15, 2019, 03:00:09 PM »
This is the most revealing photograph I have come across, of the interior.  Part of the stonework of the vaulted ceiling has collapsed. This is profound structural damage and could compromise the overall stability of the structure. The primary purpose of the flying buttresses in a gothic cathedral is to the balance the stress of the ceiling vaults and if the ceiling vaults completely collapse those buttresses could push the walls in. Seems like the authorities are saying the main structure has been saved, but restoration will be a very substantial and complicated job.



https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-47942176

Offline Ken B

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2912 on: April 15, 2019, 07:21:03 PM »
We have mentioned a few times the kind of atheist who makes some of us embarrassed to be atheists. On one prominent site today, where they whine that people don’t like atheists, I saw the following comment, about Notre Dame

Quote
the only church that illuminates is a burning church
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Online ritter

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2913 on: April 16, 2019, 01:17:20 AM »
I'm not really a religious person, but am fascinated by history and art, and am an avowed francophile. I last visited the interior of Notre-Dame some 8 years ago, but saw it last from the outside in December 2019.

This is indeed a very sad occasion.... :( :'( :( :'(
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 04:44:37 AM by ritter »
ritter
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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2914 on: April 16, 2019, 04:31:10 AM »
They say the organ survived.
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Offline Ken B

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2915 on: April 16, 2019, 05:11:10 AM »
They say the organ survived.
Wow.

Apparently the three great rose windows survived. For now at least. As has been pointed out above, there are reasons to worry about the structure. Here is another: fire can make mortar fragile. Anyway, that is the best possible news, considering what we saw happen.

Speaking of the mortar. The 19th century spire used cement not lime mortar, and that was a key part of why it needed fixing. It seems the 13th century builders knew better.
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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2916 on: April 16, 2019, 05:19:58 AM »
There are recent reports that the structure is sound, although I'm not sure to what extent is meant.
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Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2917 on: April 16, 2019, 05:26:05 AM »
There are recent reports that the structure is sound, although I'm not sure to what extent is meant.

Indeed, as noted above, mortar as well as the limestone itself can be weakened by fire. I think the best news is that the ceiling vaults are intact except for three holes. Given that the fire was in the roof, the most vulnerable part of the stone structure would be the ceiling vaults.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:32:31 AM by Ghost of Baron Scarpia »

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2918 on: April 16, 2019, 07:30:54 AM »
It is a relief to realize that when they spoke of the "entire wooden interior destroyed" they were referring to the wooden structure between the vaulted stone ceiling and the lead roof. There was no fire inside the building, so the stained glass windows were presumably spared the heat and smoke of the fire.

On the other hand, who knows how much lead was released into the atmosphere when the wood fire burned under the lead covering of the roof and spire.

Ghost of Baron Scarpia

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Re: The unimportant news thread
« Reply #2919 on: April 17, 2019, 08:52:31 AM »
I guess the question now is what form the reconstruction will take. The spire was a 19th century replacement for the original, which had fallen more than a hundred years before. It seems that replicating a 19th century addition would be a peculiar thing to do. They might try to re-imagine the original spire, or they might replace it with something representing a 21st century aesthetic. That might be more in line with the spirit of the Cathedrals, which were constantly being repaired and added to with new architectural elements during their long lifetimes. And the roof. A wood and lead replica, or maybe a Plexiglas affair like the pyramid they built at the Louvre.  :)

I suspect the ceiling vaults will be a major issue. Several vaults fell, but probably others (maybe all of them) are structurally compromised and in danger of collapsing. Maybe they all will require major repair or replacement.

Makes me think of the World Trade Center. They decided to make the original site a memorial and build a big building next to it. That would not be my choice. I would have rebuilt it the original World Trade Center exactly as it was, as if it never happened. The top floor might have been a prison block for Al Qaeda, where they would have to daily look down on a thriving New York City. :)