Author Topic: J.S. Bach on the Organ  (Read 422259 times)

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Online (: premont :)

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2800 on: March 07, 2019, 10:47:04 AM »
But the set is completely OOP and I already heard around 2011/2012 from the Stichting Groningen Orgelland that any chance of a reissue is (less than) zero.

I am very grateful, that a good friend gave me the set, before it disappeared for good.  :)
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Offline Marc

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2801 on: March 10, 2019, 02:04:04 AM »
I am very grateful, that a good friend gave me the set, before it disappeared for good.  :)

And vice versa. :)
IIRC, Koopman/Beekman/Wiersma... thanks to a good friend, ten years later it still feels as if I started my quest through Bach's organ works with the Golden Standard.
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2802 on: June 11, 2019, 09:12:16 PM »
Talking of articulated, have you heard Chorzempa’s Leipzig Chorales? They’re on Spotify etc, and I’ve enjoyed exploring his challenging vision.

I just checked out the Chorzempa - listened to my favorites, BWV 651 (Fantasia super Komm heiliger Geist), An Wasserflussen Babylon, O Lamm Gottes, and Vor deinen Tron. It is wonderful!

He takes his time and doesn't really try to build tension or push the music along. You are simply in heaven, no rush, even for the whole 10 minutes of O lamm Gottes. Although his articulation is consistently quite detached, there is still a wonderful sense on singing, and the overall effect is gently moving.

Doesn't hurt that it is played on the charming organ of Lebuinuskerk Deventer, mostly built in the 19th century (but in sort of an evolved Dutch Baroque style) but with pipework dating back to the time when Sweelinck was baptized at the very church in the 16th century.

I wonder what you find "challenging" about it? Usually something too austere or too eccentric would be "challenging" (in a good way), but I don't this was for me.

(Cross-posted from the general organ thread)

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2803 on: June 11, 2019, 09:15:42 PM »
BTW, I found out that tomorrow the Belgian organ radio Organroxx will be broadcasting among other things, the full first volume of Piet Wiersma's Bach in Groningen, with Clavier Ubung III played on the Groningen Martinikerk organ. Since Wiersma's Bach in Groningen is one of the great out-of-print-and-never-to-be-reissued "unicorn" Bach recordings, it would be a great chance for those who don't already have the recordings to hear it.

https://www.organroxx.com/en_US/playlist/1252

Offline Mandryka

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2804 on: June 12, 2019, 11:47:22 AM »
I just checked out the Chorzempa - listened to my favorites, BWV 651 (Fantasia super Komm heiliger Geist), An Wasserflussen Babylon, O Lamm Gottes, and Vor deinen Tron. It is wonderful!

He takes his time and doesn't really try to build tension or push the music along. You are simply in heaven, no rush, even for the whole 10 minutes of O lamm Gottes. Although his articulation is consistently quite detached, there is still a wonderful sense on singing, and the overall effect is gently moving.

Doesn't hurt that it is played on the charming organ of Lebuinuskerk Deventer, mostly built in the 19th century (but in sort of an evolved Dutch Baroque style) but with pipework dating back to the time when Sweelinck was baptized at the very church in the 16th century.

I wonder what you find "challenging" about it? Usually something too austere or too eccentric would be "challenging" (in a good way), but I don't this was for me.

(Cross-posted from the general organ thread)

I’m glad you like it, I love it too. It’s the rubato, or rather the absence of rubato, which I found a shock to the ears at first, and the small scale conception, it’s human being sized. “Gentle” is the right word I think, His WTC is a bit like that, and I like that very much too.

It’s hard for me to say why Chorzempa’s Bach is often so adorable.
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2805 on: June 16, 2019, 10:03:35 PM »
I’m glad you like it, I love it too. It’s the rubato, or rather the absence of rubato, which I found a shock to the ears at first, and the small scale conception, it’s human being sized. “Gentle” is the right word I think, His WTC is a bit like that, and I like that very much too.

It’s hard for me to say why Chorzempa’s Bach is often so adorable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqx5OQIkiu8

Well thanks to you the WTC is a great discovery. Eccentric choices of instruments, but all played very lyrically and of course, gently.

Maybe the organ playing here is the weakest link - at least, compared to the wonderful clavichords.

What are the instruments being used here? Seems like he is playing on a lot of different instruments, even a few different clavichords.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 10:07:44 PM by bioluminescentsquid »

Offline Mandryka

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2806 on: June 16, 2019, 10:50:01 PM »


What are the instruments being used here? Seems like he is playing on a lot of different instruments, even a few different clavichords.

I don't know. The man who released them for Philips (Tom Deacon),once said to me that he thought that the instruments were his own. Bk 1 was released on LP first, and then Tom got him to reassemble the instruments, he recorded Book 2 and Tom put the whole thing in a box of CDs. Hats off to Tom for recognising the interest in the performances -- musical rather than commercial interest I suspect, I wonder if this WTC has ever broke even.

Is he still alive? If he is I'm sure he'd appreciate an email from you, and be more than happy to tell you about the instruments.

Premont has the set, so maybe the details are there.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 10:54:45 PM by Mandryka »
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Online (: premont :)

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2807 on: June 17, 2019, 04:23:48 AM »

Premont has the set, so maybe the details are there.

Yes, I think so. I shall look for the information.
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Offline JBS

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2808 on: June 17, 2019, 06:16:49 AM »
I don't know. The man who released them for Philips (Tom Deacon),once said to me that he thought that the instruments were his own. Bk 1 was released on LP first, and then Tom got him to reassemble the instruments, he recorded Book 2 and Tom put the whole thing in a box of CDs. Hats off to Tom for recognising the interest in the performances -- musical rather than commercial interest I suspect, I wonder if this WTC has ever broke even.

Is he still alive? If he is I'm sure he'd appreciate an email from you, and be more than happy to tell you about the instruments.

Premont has the set, so maybe the details are there.

Apparently he is alive and living in Florence.  Contact details are part of his website
http://www.chorzempa.com/index.html

Although that little biography seems to date from 2003.

Online (: premont :)

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2809 on: June 17, 2019, 10:39:31 AM »
Yes, I think so. I shall look for the information.

Book I:

Clavichord Hieronymus A Haas, Hamburg 1742

Harpsichord Carl Conrad Fleischer, Hamburg 1716

Cabinet-organ unknown Dutch builder Schnitger school (Matthias Schulze?) 1732?
(no information about disposition or tuning)

Book II:

Harpsichord 1 attributed to Gottfried Silbermann school 1750 or a bit later
BWV 870, 872, 874, 885, 888, 889, 892 & 893

Harpsichord 2 Johann Christoph Fleischer, Hamburg 1710
BWV 871, 880, 886 & 890.

Clavichord Johann Heinrich Silbermann, Strassbourg ca.1775

Organ Matthias Schulze? ca. 1732
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Offline Marc

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2810 on: June 19, 2019, 09:30:18 AM »
I just checked out the Chorzempa - listened to my favorites, BWV 651 (Fantasia super Komm heiliger Geist), An Wasserflussen Babylon, O Lamm Gottes, and Vor deinen Tron. It is wonderful!

He takes his time and doesn't really try to build tension or push the music along. You are simply in heaven, no rush, even for the whole 10 minutes of O lamm Gottes. Although his articulation is consistently quite detached, there is still a wonderful sense on singing, and the overall effect is gently moving.

Doesn't hurt that it is played on the charming organ of Lebuinuskerk Deventer, mostly built in the 19th century (but in sort of an evolved Dutch Baroque style) but with pipework dating back to the time when Sweelinck was baptized at the very church in the 16th century.

I wonder what you find "challenging" about it? Usually something too austere or too eccentric would be "challenging" (in a good way), but I don't this was for me.

(Cross-posted from the general organ thread)

To me, Chorzempa offers an attractive combination of 'no nonsense' and refined lyrical playing... a bit like Ewald Kooiman. I like them both very much.
Chorzempa's recordings of f.i. the Trio Sonatas (Meppel, Hervormde Kerk) and the Orgelbüchlein (Leiden, Marekerk) are splendid, too. And his BWV 565 (Breda, Onze Lieve Vrouwekerk, reissued on Pentatone) is still one of my favourite renditions of this piece.
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Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2811 on: June 19, 2019, 06:55:37 PM »
Book I:

Clavichord Hieronymus A Haas, Hamburg 1742

Harpsichord Carl Conrad Fleischer, Hamburg 1716

Cabinet-organ unknown Dutch builder Schnitger school (Matthias Schulze?) 1732?
(no information about disposition or tuning)

Book II:

Harpsichord 1 attributed to Gottfried Silbermann school 1750 or a bit later
BWV 870, 872, 874, 885, 888, 889, 892 & 893

Harpsichord 2 Johann Christoph Fleischer, Hamburg 1710
BWV 871, 880, 886 & 890.

Clavichord Johann Heinrich Silbermann, Strassbourg ca.1775

Organ Matthias Schulze? ca. 1732

Thanks for the information! All wonderful and intriguing instruments.

Offline bioluminescentsquid

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2812 on: July 07, 2019, 08:34:57 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra587_1Sf1Q

A new release of Clavierubung III by Jörg Halubek, on the Trost organ in Walthershausen.

Offline Marc

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2813 on: August 02, 2019, 08:44:15 AM »
Listening to Alain 3, the lady playing on the Schnitger et al organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
I think it's really very very good… during the years, I have begun to appreciate this 3rd integral more and more.

Right now, lots of Schnitger festivities are going on the city of Groningen, since it's 300 years ago that the maestro, Arp Schnitger, died.
Lots of organ students from all over the world get lessons from various organists during a so called Summer Academy.
I visited a few concerts, and also a masterclass (on the Schnitger/Timpe of the Der Aa Kerk), given by Japanese organist Rie Hiroe (b. 1965). Last wednesday she performed on the Martini organ and she did a splendid job, especially with the epic Praeludium in B-minor BWV 544. Also her performance of the Fantasia in G-major "Pièce d'Orgue" BWV 572 was impressive, with a beautiful ending filled with suspense.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2814 on: August 02, 2019, 09:08:29 PM »
The one I’ve just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I’ve only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.
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Online "Harry"

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2815 on: August 02, 2019, 09:34:09 PM »
Live recording I attended Friday evening in the:
Catharina Kerk in Roden, The Netherlands.
Johann Sebastian Bach.

Wolfgang Zerer, played on the Hinsz organ.

The Church was full to the brim, the air was sticky, and there were many international organ students. Before I say anything about the performance, you have to know that they removed the plaster from the walls some time ago, to show all the brickwork underneath. Looks pretty, but it ruined the acoustics, and thus the Hinsz organ is badly treated. No reverb, music bouncing steel hard against the walls, with the mixtures cutting through your ears as a knife goes through butter.
Although Zerer has played often on this instrument, he does not realize that you have to cut back on the loudness, and play in a  less dynamic way, or with less agitated energy. that way we are spared some of the nasty sounds.
But he does not, at least not in the first half of the J.S. Back recital. He starts with the Praeludium in G, BWV 568, so fast that none of the notes get a real chance to unfold, and due to the dynamics and loudness, he makes it ramble like a couple of iron chains, painful to the ears, and this is repeated till the last piece before the pause, Valet will ich dir geben, BWV 736, a beautiful piece that falls short of compassion.
After the pause it gets much better, starting with the praeludium in C, BWV 874/1. Well balanced still a tad to fast but more expression. The highlight for me was Partite diverse sopra O Gott, du frommer Gott, the Hinsz was treated according to its possibilities, and had me in raptures, closed off with the Fuge in c, BWV 575.
Now it is not Zerer's fault that they ruined the acoustics, for I think him one of the best organists we have in Europe.  But his playing made abundantly clear, that if you want the sound of the original intonation, and the instrument to bloom, they have to reapply the plaster.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2816 on: August 02, 2019, 09:58:40 PM »
That’s really interesting Harry, I guess the plaster was already there when the organ was installed in the c18, but the bricks were exposed prior to that. I wouldn’t have guessed it would have made such a big difference - both hard reflective surfaces.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 10:01:25 PM by Mandryka »
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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2817 on: August 03, 2019, 12:25:19 AM »
The one I’ve just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I’ve only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.

A somewhat idiosyncratic cycle I think. But it suits my temper.
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Offline Marc

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2818 on: August 04, 2019, 04:04:43 AM »
Live recording I attended Friday evening in the:
Catharina Kerk in Roden, The Netherlands.
Johann Sebastian Bach.

Wolfgang Zerer, played on the Hinsz organ.

The Church was full to the brim, the air was sticky, and there were many international organ students. Before I say anything about the performance, you have to know that they removed the plaster from the walls some time ago, to show all the brickwork underneath. Looks pretty, but it ruined the acoustics, and thus the Hinsz organ is badly treated. No reverb, music bouncing steel hard against the walls, with the mixtures cutting through your ears as a knife goes through butter.
Although Zerer has played often on this instrument, he does not realize that you have to cut back on the loudness, and play in a  less dynamic way, or with less agitated energy. that way we are spared some of the nasty sounds.
But he does not, at least not in the first half of the J.S. Back recital. He starts with the Praeludium in G, BWV 568, so fast that none of the notes get a real chance to unfold, and due to the dynamics and loudness, he makes it ramble like a couple of iron chains, painful to the ears, and this is repeated till the last piece before the pause, Valet will ich dir geben, BWV 736, a beautiful piece that falls short of compassion.
After the pause it gets much better, starting with the praeludium in C, BWV 874/1. Well balanced still a tad to fast but more expression. The highlight for me was Partite diverse sopra O Gott, du frommer Gott, the Hinsz was treated according to its possibilities, and had me in raptures, closed off with the Fuge in c, BWV 575.
Now it is not Zerer's fault that they ruined the acoustics, for I think him one of the best organists we have in Europe.  But his playing made abundantly clear, that if you want the sound of the original intonation, and the instrument to bloom, they have to reapply the plaster.

I only attended a concert in Roden once, it must have been 2 years ago. Given the expected acoustic circumstances (which you described very well) I picked a place rather far away from the organ. I must say, that, despite the lack of reverb, the sound was rather pleasant to the ears, even though I found this particalur Hinsz instrument not as spicy as some others. It might be that Henk de Vries, who played the organ that evening, knew a little bit more about the instrument in its circumstances than Zerer did last Friday.

Monday evening Zerer will be playing on the organ in the Der Aa Kerk. If things work out, I will attend it.
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Offline Marc

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Re: J.S. Bach on the Organ
« Reply #2819 on: August 04, 2019, 04:06:57 AM »
The one I’ve just acquired is Matthias Eisenberg. Well recorded, I think, and some nice organs (Eg the Osnabrück Flentrop) But so far I’ve only had a chance to hear the very beginning of orgalbuchlein and the middle of CU3.

Are the discs available again somewhere?

(Or did you just get lucky? ;))
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