Topic: J.S. Bach's Organ Works

[Jeffrey Smith]

It is basically letter post versus parcel post.  A padded envelope containing a couple of jewel cases will go via the former, a large box usually via the latter.  You hand them both in at the post office, but thereafter they tend to use separate infrastructures.  They have different depots, for example, if you have to go collect something because there's a customs charge.   There's a lot of air travel for letter post even internally within the UK, whereas there's more road freight for parcels.  Parcel post is inherently slower than letter post, but substantially cheaper for large/heavy items, indeed above certain sizes/weights you have no choice but to send it that way.

Thanks for the clarification.  (In the meantime we're now at the point where Parcelforce says it's at my local post office and the local Post Office declares they don't have it.  The saga continues.

[Geo Dude]

I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.  No more 'wall of sound' problems, though I think I should have started with the trio sonatas to get myself adjusted to the organ sound.  That said, I must ask, are there any HIP organ integrals out there, or partially completed sets?

[karlhenning]

I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.

Groovy! (Monaural or stereo? I've the mono set)

[Geo Dude]

Groovy! (Monaural or stereo? I've the mono set)

Stereo set, though I've also heard great things about the prior mono set.

[Leo K.]

I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.  No more 'wall of sound' problems, though I think I should have started with the trio sonatas to get myself adjusted to the organ sound.  That said, I must ask, are there any HIP organ integrals out there, or partially completed sets?

Thanks to the recommendations in this thread, I recently decided on the integral by Bernard Foccroulle:

...a wide variety of instruments, restored baroque organs with lots of personality, virtuosity in the fugues, gravitas in the chorals, clarity of counterpoint that does not depend on metronomic rhythms or labored tempos, interesting registrations, excellent sound production, and an overall energy and personality that keeps one from becoming bored.

I'm on disk two, and enjoying this immensely!

[Geo Dude]

Thanks to the recommendations in this thread, I recently decided on the integral by Bernard Foccroulle:

I'm on disk two, and enjoying this immensely!

Thanks for the lead.  This sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for.

[Jeffrey Smith]

My order from JPC arrived this morning,  including the Vernet integral.

Which is really "Complete Organ Works Plus More", with guest appearances by Marie-Claire Alain and a few others
CDs 1-15  The Works for Organ arranged sort of chronologically, so chorales and fugues and sonatas and concertos are all mixed in together--a different arrangement from the Alain and Preston sets I already have, where everything is arranged by category.  We'll see how I like this arrangement.
CD 16 "Clavier Ubung 0" "An Album for the Young"--a compilation of pieces probably not by Bach, but by his pupils, or by colleagues or earlier musicians but  used by Bach for teaching purposes.  Mostly preludes and fugues, etc. ending with the Little Harmonic Labyrinth.
CD 17  The Concertos for 2, 3 and 4 Keyboard Instruments (BWV 1060 etc), with the solo parts played on positive organs, with Alain and others sharing the solo duties with Vernet, and the Collegium Baroque doing the orchestral duties.  Period instruments, done on the premise that if works Bach wrote for the harpsichord can be played on the piano, then why not the organ (and a further argument to back up the idea that in fact they were sometimes played on organ in Bach's day.)
CD 18  Vernet's first CD, a recital of Bach pieces dating from 1988
CD 19 a collection of works by Bach and transcriptions of Bach works taken (I'm slightly guessing here) from other Vernet recordings of various dates.

Fuller liner notes than with the Preston and Alain sets, and a rather ample description of the organs used in the recording of the integral.

[Geo Dude]

Any recommendations for the trio sonatas?

[Que]

I'm in the midst of disc six and really loving Walcha's set.  No more 'wall of sound' problems, though I think I should have started with the trio sonatas to get myself adjusted to the organ sound.  That said, I must ask, are there any HIP organ integrals out there, or partially completed sets?

Being still a novice in the world of Bach organ music, I discovered there are various degrees of HIP. First there is the issue of historically informed playing. There are quite some of that around. Second is the issue of the use of appropriate historical organs suitable for organ music of the North German Organ School, like Bach. The combination of both is pretty rare. Ton Koopman (Warner) is one, and I absolutely love it. But Koopman's free and rather "involved" style divdes opinions. Another is Weinberger (CPO) - gorgeous organs and a very correct HIP approach, but playing that varies from quite nice to utterly dull and boring....

Anyway, a post that is IMO a "golden oldie" in this respect is the first post in this thread by one of our resident expert, premont. Can't hurt to quote it once more!

Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).

[Mandryka]

I've been listening some  recordings BWV 682 -- that's is a choral prelude from Clavier Ubung 3: it's one of my favourites.

The two which I've found the most impressive are Koopman's,  and Rubsam's on Naxos. Both are contemplative readings.

According to wikipedia the music is inspired by a verse from  Romans "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." and a hymn by Luther.

Koopman really tells the story of this verse, and indeed the hymn. At the start Koopman is hushed.  The pulse is like the slow beating of a heart. There's a moment of extraordinary passion, turmoil almost,  in the middle of the performance. And the final third is radiant, peaceful.

I find it harder to say why I like Rubsam so much. He doesn't tell a story as far as I hear. He's not very colourful. He's not extrovert and impetuous like in his first recording of it on Philips.  It's just very very rapt and sincere. And when he does change registration, the effect is very powerful. It is hypnotic, a midnight listen. I can't be more articulate about it than that.

I enjoyed others of course -- especially Wolfgang Stockmeier, who's colourful and exciting, and so very much a contrast to the above.  But it's Rubsam's second and Koopman which stand out for me.

[Coopmv]

Being still a novice in the world of Bach organ music, I discovered there are various degrees of HIP. First there is the issue of historically informed playing. There are quite some of that around. Second is the issue of the use of appropriate historical organs suitable for organ music of the North German Organ School, like Bach. The combination of both is pretty rare. Ton Koopman (Warner) is one, and I absolutely love it. But Koopman's free and rather "involved" style divdes opinions. Another is Weinberger (CPO) - gorgeous organs and a very correct HIP approach, but playing that varies from quite nice to utterly dull and boring....

Anyway, a post that is IMO a "golden oldie" in this respect is the first post in this thread by one of our resident expert, premont. Can't hurt to quote it once more!

I happen to have both versions you mentioned and agree with your assessment.

[Mandryka]

I've been listening some  recordings BWV 682 -- that's is a choral prelude from Clavier Ubung 3: it's one of my favourites.

The two which I've found the most impressive are Koopman's,  and Rubsam's on Naxos. Both are contemplative readings.

According to wikipedia the music is inspired by a verse from  Romans "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." and a hymn by Luther.

Koopman really tells the story of this verse, and indeed the hymn. At the start Koopman is hushed.  The pulse is like the slow beating of a heart. There's a moment of extraordinary passion, turmoil almost,  in the middle of the performance. And the final third is radiant, peaceful.

I find it harder to say why I like Rubsam so much. He doesn't tell a story as far as I hear. He's not very colourful. He's not extrovert and impetuous like in his first recording of it on Philips.  It's just very very rapt and sincere. And when he does change registration, the effect is very powerful. It is hypnotic, a midnight listen. I can't be more articulate about it than that.

I enjoyed others of course -- especially Wolfgang Stockmeier, who's colourful and exciting, and so very much a contrast to the above.  But it's Rubsam's second and Koopman which stand out for me.

One thing Rubsam does in that Naxos recording is this. He finds a long song-like melody in a treble voice right at the very start. The melody lasts for practically the length of the whole prelude -- about 7 minutes.  He plays it with amazing sweep: it's as if he's bitten off the whole thing in one go.  He balances the voices so that that song never becomes obscured or confused. The entire treble voice melody is played in the same slightly  piercing registration  for most (but not all) of the prelude. When he does change the registration of that melody, the result is very poetic.

Because of this there's tremendous coherence to the performance.

There's an ebb and flow in the progress of the music, so it's as if the music's breathing.  I'm not sure how he's achieved that.

At the same time, of course, the other voices are busy doing their stuff and the resulting texture is very special to me. I want to say it's a sort of impressionistic texture (it made me think   of some of the things Pletnev does in Chopin's 3rd sonata. But I really shouldn't say that until I've had a chance to check it out. )

[(: premont :)]

One thing Rubsam does in that Naxos recording is this. He finds a long song-like melody in a treble voice right at the very start. The melody lasts for practically the length of the whole prelude -- about 7 minutes.  He plays it with amazing sweep: it's as if he's bitten off the whole thing in one go.  He balances the voices so that that song never becomes obscured or confused. The entire treble voice melody is played in the same slightly  piercing registration  for most (but not all) of the prelude. When he does change the registration of that melody, the result is very poetic.

This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

[Leo K.]

This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

Thank you and all for this wonderful discussion. Always illuminating to read!

[Opus106]

Thank you and all for this wonderful discussion. Always illuminating to read!

Seconded.

[Mandryka]

This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

Ah -- thanks premont. What I took to be a change in registration occurs at about 4'30''. But on just listening again it may well be the entry of a new voice. It's a wonderful moment, in a performance which effects me more and more  every time I listen to it.

You've got to know that I'm not an organist: I don't have a physical relationship to the performances I'm hearing. And furthermore , really, in all honesty, I'm only just  starting to become acquainted with this music.

This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. ]I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration.[/b] The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast.I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

Appreciated.

When you think about lieder you ask yourself: how well does this performance express the  poem?  I'm interested in exploring a similar  critical approach for performances of Choral Preludes.

Only, we have no poem!

This choral prelude "Vater unser" BWV 682 is a five part composition, three of the parts being a kind of instrumental triosonata (one part in each hand and a walking continuo like bass part in the pedal). Added to this are two more parts one of each played with each hand consisting of the choral tune (Vater unser) played in canon. So each hand plays two parts which are one of the "instrumental" parts and one of the choral tune parts. The treble melody you mention is one of the choral tune parts, the one played with the left hand I think, which should stand out as a kind of cantus firmus. I do not understand what you think of, writing that he [Rübsam] changes registration, as he plays the entire piece with unchanged registration. The instrumental parts may seem chaotic with irregular rhytms but the choral tune is on the other hand rocksteady as a contrast. I see the piece as a picture of our chaotic world (instrumental parts) contrasted with the eternal stability of Gods word, symbolised by the Vater unser tune (the words to the tune being a picture of the Lord´s prayer). Of the two canonic parts the upper one may symbolize our prayers repeted like we have learnt them from God, who´s word is symbolized by the  lower canonic part.

This chaotic element was (from memory -- I could be wrong) interestingly brought out by  Olivier Verlet. I should listen again to that one.

[jlaurson]

Q

If you've gone through this by the disc, did you also find that the set get significantly better after the first two discs?

Thread duty:



L.v. Beethoven
Symphonies 4 & 6
Fischer Ivan / Budapest Festival Orchestra
Channel Classics SACD

Very enjoyable 4th, so far!

[Que]

If you've gone through this by the disc, did you also find that the set get significantly better after the first two discs?

Yes. And I mean: yes, exactly!  I should check if Vernet did record them in that order - he probably did - and indeed the two disc are so-so styllistically and after that things get significantly better. And the set sofar does get better and better still - even organ-wise.

Q

[Jeffrey Smith]

If you've gone through this by the disc, did you also find that the set get significantly better after the first two discs?

Obviously I'm ~Q, but I've got CD 4 playing now as I type this, and possibly CD 5 to wrap up the evening.    It's too early to say whether I like this, but one positive thing is that Vernet did not record the fugues in one lump, the chorales in another lump, and so forth, like Preston and Alain II, the other full cycles I've listened to--but rather it's arranged sort of chronologically (meaning, as chronologically as possible given the limits of knowing exactly when Bach composed any particular piece).  The difference in quality you mention is possibly there (meaning, I can see why you might say that, but I'm not sure I actually agree with it--at least one more listen would be required to decide, even after I complete the first listen for the whole set), but because of the chronological arrangement, you may be hearing not a difference in  Vernet's playing but a difference in Bach's composition--if you play this set in order, you're traversing the path Bach took from young composer to full flowering, and presumably the earlier works are not necessarily at the same high level of the later ones.

[Jeffrey Smith]

Yes. And I mean: yes, exactly!  I should check if Vernet did record them in that order - he probably did - and indeed the two disc are so-so styllistically and after that things get significantly better. And the set sofar does get better and better still - even organ-wise.

Q

In general, they were recorded in order, but not exactly.  That is CDs 1-3 were recorded April 95 to Jan 96, CDs 4-6 later in 1996, and so forth--but  CD 2 was recorded after CD 3.