Author Topic: Franz Schubert  (Read 65881 times)

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Offline JBS

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #460 on: December 13, 2018, 05:23:34 PM »
Karajan per the Karajan Remastered credits
28.IX.1977 and 2-6.I.1978
Symphonies 1,2,3,4,5,6, Rosamunde overture and ballet music
8.I.1975
Symphony 8 (Unfinished)
10-12.VI.1977
Symphony 9 (Great)

So he spent almost as much time on the Ninth as he did on the first six combined.


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Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #461 on: December 14, 2018, 12:44:14 AM »
Not only about cycles but while you are at it, could you try to find out if there actually were recordings of all symphonies in the mono age? I am not aware of 1 and 2 and not sure about 6. The Beecham 3,5,6 is already stereo, I think.

The earliest stereo cycle was not finished, Maazel started in 1958 but #1 and #9 are missing. Unfortunately, because I think this one is considerably better than the famous Böhm from a little later, far more alert and better sound as well. It would still be a contender for a very good modern instrument cycle, if complete.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline ChamberNut

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #462 on: December 14, 2018, 05:26:56 AM »
I'm undertaking my next discography survey -- this time of Schubert Symphonies.

Here's what I have for the 60/70s. If anyone can confirm dates (earliest / last), that'd be great.

1964 Denis Vaughan/ (RCA Victrola) (nur LP)   
1969 Menuhin/Menuhin Festival Orchestra (EMI)   
1970 Maag/Philharmonia Hungarica (VOX)   
1963-71 Kertesz/Wiener Phil (Decca)   
1962-72 Böhm/Berliner Phil (DG)    
1967-72 Sawallisch/Staatskapelle Dresden (Philips)   
1978 Mehta/Israel Philharmonic (Decca, CDs: Australian Eloquence)   
1970er Karajan/Berliner Phil (EMI)

Oh goodie!  I'll be interested in your thoughts on the Kertesz/Wiener set.  If it had been and LP or cassette set, I surely would have worn this set out two or three fold.  :)
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #463 on: December 14, 2018, 08:06:09 AM »
Karajan per the Karajan Remastered credits
28.IX.1977 and 2-6.I.1978
Symphonies 1,2,3,4,5,6, Rosamunde overture and ballet music
8.I.1975
Symphony 8 (Unfinished)
10-12.VI.1977
Symphony 9 (Great)

So he spent almost as much time on the Ninth as he did on the first six combined.

...and that's exactly how it sounds.
Thanks much for those detailed dates! V. helpful, since my discs are separated from me.

Not only about cycles but while you are at it, could you try to find out if there actually were recordings of all symphonies in the mono age? I am not aware of 1 and 2 and not sure about 6. The Beecham 3,5,6 is already stereo, I think.

The earliest stereo cycle was not finished, Maazel started in 1958 but #1 and #9 are missing. Unfortunately, because I think this one is considerably better than the famous Böhm from a little later, far more alert and better sound as well. It would still be a contender for a very good modern instrument cycle, if complete.

The earliest COMPLETE cycle I am aware of is that of Denis Vaughan - and that is already on stereo. Earlier than that -- and thanks for pointing out Maazel to me; I'll start looking -- there's only E.v.Beinum 1946–1957. He's mono, alright, but the 1, 2, and 9th are missing. (Eloquence has re-issued it.) Another early cycle that's unfinished -- that of Karl Muenchinger 1959–1969 (missing only No.1) is also already (or at least partially) stereo.

Oh goodie!  I'll be interested in your thoughts on the Kertesz/Wiener set.  If it had been and LP or cassette set, I surely would have worn this set out two or three fold.  :)

Alas, I have not heard it yet. It was always so present and just there, when I came into my listening and collecting self, that I never thought much of it. Fusty. If I had purchased a set back then, it would probably have been Boehm. As it was, it ended up being the cheapo Karajan on two EMI Twofers that were my first introduction to the early Schubert symphonies. And I immediately knew that that was NOT how I wanted them performed. (I knew the 5th through Wand, NDR, which was so amazing.)






Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #464 on: December 14, 2018, 08:37:31 AM »
André, the Suitner you are liking so much, is that a clamshell box with soft sleeves for the CDs (Japan-style)?

Thanks for all the comments thus far. Jo498 - do you know when the last recording of Maazel's for DG with the BPh took place?

Here's what I have thus far:

Lorin   Maazel (2,3,4,5,6,8) Date(s) missing          
Eduard van Beinum, (3,4,5,6,8)   
Karl Münchinger   (2-6, 8, 9)   WPh, Klassische Philharmonie Stuttgart  (9)
Denis Vaughan, Alessandro Scarlatti Orchestra Neapel, RCA Victrola - is 1964 the right date? Never on CD?
Yehudi Menuhin, Menuhin Festival Orchestra, 1968 (Is that year - just one - correct?)
Peter   Maag, Philharmonica Hungarica, 1969, VOX
Istvan Kertesz, WPh, Decca
Karl    Böhm, BPh, DG
Wolfgang   Sawallisch Concertgebouw Orchestra, Philips - was this never issued on CD outside either the catch-all Sawallisch Box and the two Philips DUOs? Dates missing
Zubin Mehta, Israel Ph., Dates missing
Herbert Karajan, EMI

Online André

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #465 on: December 14, 2018, 08:43:09 AM »
Jens: yes.

The Munchinger set is very good, but only one performance truly stands out: the 2nd.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 08:45:13 AM by André »

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #466 on: December 14, 2018, 08:52:00 AM »
Yehudi Menuhin, Menuhin Festival Orchestra, 1968 (Is that year - just one - correct?)

Hi Jens

I used to have that incarnation of the Menuhin, the back label indicates 1966-1969. see below found online :




Olivier

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #467 on: December 14, 2018, 09:10:29 AM »
Hi Jens

I used to have that incarnation of the Menuhin, the back label indicates 1966-1969. see below found online :




Those are the copyright years, not the recording dates -- they are usually a bit different. But the early copyright is telling, in that that's the very LATEST it could have begun. So I AM wrong. Thanks!

Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #468 on: December 14, 2018, 02:37:46 PM »
My question was not well phrased. I was pretty sure that there was no mono complete recording. Interesting that Van Beinum is pretty close, probably the most from one conductor in the mono era. But I was mainly wondering if there were earlier (single) recordings of the first two symphonies. Maybe not.

Maazel: Berlin, Jesus-Christus-Kirche: November 1959 (4,8), January 1961 (5+6), March 1962 (2+3).
I have them in a beige box dedicated to Maazel's early DG stuff. There is a more recent, more comprehensive blue box. The Schubert was also on a French twofer and I think Aussie eloquence as well.

This may be helpful, too:

http://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/6259-franz-schubert-gesamtaufnahmen-der-sinfonien/&postID=179858#post179858
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #469 on: December 14, 2018, 03:33:02 PM »
My question was not well phrased. I was pretty sure that there was no mono complete recording. Interesting that Van Beinum is pretty close, probably the most from one conductor in the mono era. But I was mainly wondering if there were earlier (single) recordings of the first two symphonies. Maybe not.

Maazel: Berlin, Jesus-Christus-Kirche: November 1959 (4,8), January 1961 (5+6), March 1962 (2+3).
I have them in a beige box dedicated to Maazel's early DG stuff. There is a more recent, more comprehensive blue box. The Schubert was also on a French twofer and I think Aussie eloquence as well.

This may be helpful, too:

http://www.tamino-klassikforum.at/index.php?thread/6259-franz-schubert-gesamtaufnahmen-der-sinfonien/&postID=179858#post179858

That's very good. I can't rely on it (it's not complete and not always accurate -- i.e. where I know the exact dates, I see discrepancies -- but it will scurry me on to dig deeper, still. Trying to read the fine print off LP cover backs, most of the time. :-) Thanks much for finding & sharing.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #470 on: Today at 01:13:17 AM »
Right, it is not meticulous discography. But it's the first time I heard of Stein's, Viotti's  or Vasary's.

I am of a somewhat divided mind. On the one hand, I find most of the early symphonies rather slight and don't often listen to them. I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Davis/Dresden, Keitel/Putbus, the Maazel incomplete and a bunch of single discs (not to start with the Great and the b minor fragment). On the other hand, they are also extremely charming and I could be tempted by Kertesz or one of the Menuhin's...
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #471 on: Today at 01:30:53 AM »
Right, it is not meticulous discography. But it's the first time I heard of Stein's, Viotti's  or Vasary's.

I am of a somewhat divided mind. On the one hand, I find most of the early symphonies rather slight and don't often listen to them. I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Davis/Dresden, Keitel/Putbus, the Maazel incomplete and a bunch of single discs (not to start with the Great and the b minor fragment). On the other hand, they are also extremely charming and I could be tempted by Kertesz or one of the Menuhin's...

I've long dismissed Menuhin out of hand, having heard plenty stories of him as a conductor. But his Schubert may well been ahead of is time and still above average lively in the late incarnation. Perhaps I do him wrong.

I have Suitner on my list of acquisitions... perhaps even Kertesz, which I reckon will disappoint me, though. My over all favorite to date is still Brüggen! (Though I like Harnoncourt I and Wand and Immerseel also.)

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #472 on: Today at 03:51:15 AM »
Right, it is not meticulous discography. But it's the first time I heard of Stein's, Viotti's  or Vasary's.

I am of a somewhat divided mind. On the one hand, I find most of the early symphonies rather slight and don't often listen to them. I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Davis/Dresden, Keitel/Putbus, the Maazel incomplete and a bunch of single discs (not to start with the Great and the b minor fragment). On the other hand, they are also extremely charming and I could be tempted by Kertesz or one of the Menuhin's...

You must be one of very few collectors to have the fairly obscure Keitel/Putbus cycle from Minsk. Could you confirm the dates, by chance? I'm at: 1994 – 1997

Have worked my way through the second block:

Herbert   Blomstedt
Günter   Wand
Neville   Marriner
Daniel   Barenboim
Claudio   Abbado
Horst   Stein
Roy   Goodman
Roger   Norrington
Othmar   Suitner
Riccardo   Muti

Am awaiting confirmation of recording dates from Bamberg Symphony and then that's all set, too.



Offline Jo498

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #473 on: Today at 04:49:52 AM »
I must have picked up the Keitel very cheaply some time ago. As far as I recall it used to be a dark horse recommendation at rec.music.classical.recordings (but I got it much later, many years after it came out). The  Great is somewhat small scale AFAIR but the early ones are quite good.
recording dates:
1,2,3,6 March 1997 Minsk
4,5 May 1995 Minsk
7,8 (i.e. 8,9) September 1997 Martinskirche Uttenhofen
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Online André

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #474 on: Today at 07:43:13 AM »
Speaking of the ninth, one detail that makes or breaks a performance for me is the very last chord, where a controversial hairpin sign is sometimes interpreted as a diminuendo. Now, just imagine the last C major chord of the Beethoven 5th or Brahms 1st played diminuendo. Coïtus interruptus maximus... ???

The fortissimo-est last chord I’ve heard is from Suitner. He caps it with a loud thwack from the timpani. I like to think of it as a nose-thumbing gesture to the HIP crowd  ;D.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #475 on: Today at 08:07:24 AM »
Speaking of the ninth, one detail that makes or breaks a performance for me is the very last chord, where a controversial hairpin sign is sometimes interpreted as a diminuendo. Now, just imagine the last C major chord of the Beethoven 5th or Brahms 1st played diminuendo. Coïtus interruptus maximus... ???
The fortissimo-est last chord I’ve heard is from Suitner. He caps it with a loud thwack from the timpani. I like to think of it as a nose-thumbing gesture to the HIP crowd  ;D.

This piqued my curiosity about one of my favorite works by a favorite composer. so I went to check.
There is an initial Fz on the unison C played by all the instruments over 5 beats (2 1/2 measures).
The diminuendo hairpin looks to me as a natural decay of the sound, that's all.

Zb
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #476 on: Today at 01:49:49 PM »
I must have picked up the Keitel very cheaply some time ago. As far as I recall it used to be a dark horse recommendation at rec.music.classical.recordings (but I got it much later, many years after it came out). The  Great is somewhat small scale AFAIR but the early ones are quite good.
recording dates:
1,2,3,6 March 1997 Minsk
4,5 May 1995 Minsk
7,8 (i.e. 8,9) September 1997 Martinskirche Uttenhofen

Thanks much! I've also got the dates of the Goodman cycle confirmed... by the man himself.  :D :-* Alas, he's not very happy with his cycle, for the editing hatchet job that Nimbus hoisted on it.