Author Topic: Mahler Mania, Rebooted  (Read 323331 times)

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Offline Cato

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3920 on: November 12, 2017, 04:23:51 AM »
Kubelik

Amen!  0:)

I came across this rarity on YouTube: Arnold Schoenberg conducts the second movement of Mahler's Second for a radio broadcast in 1934 from New York:

Dreadful quality, but if you can blank out the noise there would seem to be a Viennese Schlagobers sound to some of the playing  ???  8)  :

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/F9KGqRoKGiY&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/F9KGqRoKGiY&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

Dig the picture of Arnold Baby with half of a smirking smile! 0:)
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline André

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3921 on: November 27, 2017, 12:39:54 PM »
This is a very long thread, so forgive me if someone has already posted this link:


http://www.orchestralibrary.com/reftables/mahler2gloss.html#N


It’s a glossary of the german musical terms (and their english translation) used by Mahler in his works. I find it very useful.

Offline Papy Oli

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3922 on: December 02, 2017, 06:20:45 AM »
Anyone for a resurrection rumba ?  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr_9-mOON4&feature=youtu.be

(found on the gustavmahlerboard.com)

Olivier

Offline motoboy

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3923 on: December 02, 2017, 11:21:15 AM »
Amen!  0:)

I came across this rarity on YouTube: Arnold Schoenberg conducts the second movement of Mahler's Second for a radio broadcast in 1934 from New York:

Dreadful quality, but if you can blank out the noise there would seem to be a Viennese Schlagobers sound to some of the playing  ???  8)  :

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/F9KGqRoKGiY&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/F9KGqRoKGiY&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

Dig the picture of Arnold Baby with half of a smirking smile! 0:)

I love the phrasing and the way he lets the music breathe. It reminds me of Mehta a little. Maybe a little indulgent, but I would really love to hear a high quality recording of this.

Offline kyjo

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3924 on: December 02, 2017, 03:59:44 PM »
Anyone for a resurrection rumba ?  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axr_9-mOON4&feature=youtu.be

(found on the gustavmahlerboard.com)

Great stuff! 8) I also love the same artist's rumba version of the second movement of Beethoven 7: https://youtu.be/mZRb0FyAa9s

Offline Jo498

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3925 on: December 03, 2017, 12:35:54 AM »
I actually find that the Beethoven 7th works better than the Mahler.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)


Offline Jay F

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3927 on: December 15, 2017, 11:18:52 AM »
Mahlermaniacs, is my new pic really one of Gustav? I found it yesterday while looking for one that no one else is using, but I can only find pages in Spanish and Italian that refer to it. From what I'm able to translate, it should be Mahler, but the guy in the pic looks a little more like Mahler as played by Patrick Dempsey, Adrien Brody, or perhaps Timothee Chalamet.

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3928 on: December 15, 2017, 11:24:01 AM »
I think it's from the Ken Russell film (which I haven't seen, but have certainly heard about).
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline Cato

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3929 on: December 15, 2017, 11:31:17 AM »
I think it's from the Ken Russell film (which I haven't seen, but have certainly heard about).

Right: that is definitely from the movie!

COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3930 on: December 15, 2017, 11:31:46 AM »
So that is how Harry Potter ages!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Jay F

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3931 on: December 16, 2017, 11:52:26 PM »
Thank you all very much. I guess I'll keep looking.

Offline DaveF

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3932 on: December 23, 2017, 07:45:21 AM »
While looking at percussion parts of no.5 for a workshop performance early next year, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that in the revised version there is an exposition repeat marked in the second movement, ending where the first subject kicks back in (5 after fig.9 in the Peters score, exactly 4 minutes into the Barbirolli recording).  Does anyone ever play this, or are there any recordings that do?  It would make the movement almost 1/3 long again and radically alter the proportions of things.  As it's in the revised edition (at least according to IMSLP), I suppose it represents GM's final thoughts.
"Just because I like something, it doesn't mean it's any good."

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3933 on: December 23, 2017, 07:49:07 AM »
While looking at percussion parts of no.5 for a workshop performance early next year, I made the surprising (to me) discovery that in the revised version there is an exposition repeat marked in the second movement, ending where the first subject kicks back in (5 after fig.9 in the Peters score, exactly 4 minutes into the Barbirolli recording).  Does anyone ever play this, or are there any recordings that do?  It would make the movement almost 1/3 long again and radically alter the proportions of things.  As it's in the revised edition (at least according to IMSLP), I suppose it represents GM's final thoughts.

As I recall, it's the other way around.  He wrote an exposition repeat in, and then removed it in the process of revisions.  I'm pretty sure the critical edition score doesn't have it, so it's never played that way (though I seem to vaguely recall hearing one recording that did, but couldn't tell you which).  Good thing too, as that repeat would stop the momentum of the movement.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline Biffo

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3934 on: December 23, 2017, 08:20:27 AM »
It became Mahler's practice to have a score printed as soon as he had finished a work to his initial satisfaction. He did this with the 5th and the Peters edition (Leipzig 1904) was the first printed edition of the symphony. Shortly afterwards Mahler had two private run-throughs with the Vienna Philharmonic and began to make changes which he then sent to his publisher. The exposition repeat was one of the first things to go and never made it into any subsequent editions of the score or (probably) any public performance. Mahler continued to tinker with the orchestration to the end of his life and never heard his final version.

Offline DaveF

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3935 on: December 23, 2017, 01:53:43 PM »
Interesting!  Thanks, both.  I've looked at all the numerous available recordings on Spotify, and all second movements come in between 14-15 minutes, so none of them includes it.  And I had never previously thought of those first 4 minutes as a sonata-allegro 2-subject exposition.  The rest of the moment could hardly be called sonata-form!
"Just because I like something, it doesn't mean it's any good."

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3936 on: December 23, 2017, 06:36:56 PM »
Interesting!  Thanks, both.  I've looked at all the numerous available recordings on Spotify, and all second movements come in between 14-15 minutes, so none of them includes it.  And I had never previously thought of those first 4 minutes as a sonata-allegro 2-subject exposition.  The rest of the moment could hardly be called sonata-form!

Mahler certainly thought of the second movement as the "sonata-allegro" of the piece, and the first movement as a kind of introduction.  You can analyze the movement as a sonata-allegro with two themes, development, and recapitulation, but there are a number of strange things about this:

- The key relationships of the themes are non-standard (a minor - f minor)
- The development deals in large part with themes/motivic relationships that are separate, either those introduced in the first movement or yet to come in the third
- The recapitulation moves the second theme into a key other than the tonic, and in fact moves to one of the furthest keys from the tonic (e-flat minor)
- A premonition of the finale of the work prevents the ending of the movement from feeling final in any way
- Only in the coda is A minor finally restored permanently

In summary, it "is" a sonata-allegro form, but probably only in the barest sense possible.  It only really makes sense in the context of the complete symphony.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:43:59 PM by Mahlerian »
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline Biffo

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3937 on: December 24, 2017, 02:02:26 AM »
Just to add to Mahlerian's excellent post, Mahler described the second movement as the 'Hauptsatz' - 'head' or main movement.

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3938 on: December 24, 2017, 04:16:22 AM »
Just to add to Mahlerian's excellent post, Mahler described the second movement as the 'Hauptsatz' - 'head' or main movement.

Thank you.  Yes, and he also told the publishers that the symphony should not be given a key designation because the "Hauptsatz" came second, was in a different key from the introductory movement, and also in a different tonality entirely from the key of the finale.  It's really quite meaningless to say that the work is "in" C# minor for those reasons.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline kyjo

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #3939 on: December 29, 2017, 02:00:14 PM »
What are everyone's favorite recording(s) of the Mahler 5th? I've always thought it's a work with great individual moments (the endings of the 2nd and 5th movements, and the entire Adagietto), but one that rather fails to cohere as a whole. I'm looking for performances that'll convince me otherwise :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 03:13:06 PM by kyjo »

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