Author Topic: Mahler Mania, Rebooted  (Read 315693 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Marc

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3140
  • Sine Cerere et Bach friget Venus
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2007, 11:44:46 PM »
is it me, or do any of you also find the second movement of Mahler's 7th symphony "nachtmusik I" addictive. I probably listened to that single movement hundreds of times, and i still find it fascinating.

I totally understand. But I do have my 'own' addictive single Mahler movements. If you do not mind, I'd like to share them with you. ;)

Second symphony: Finale (but 'only' the final chorus: Aufersteh'n, ja, aufersteh'n ..... I still - after all those years of listening - get very emotional at the point where the choir is singing: "Sterben werd' ich um zu leben!")
Fifth symphony: Third movement (Scherzo).
Seventh symphony: First movement.
Tenth symphony: Adagio in F sharp (first movement).

The most addictive symphonies (in total): 4 and 5.
Help support the GMG Classical Music Forum by purchasing from Amazon using this link, this link, or this link

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 21150
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2007, 04:35:59 AM »
The 4th is my favourite symphony, and I like Kubelik's approach very much. The slow movement is taking him around 18 minutes, which is .... way too slow! :o

Nevertheless he's rather quick, compared to many others.

Yes, most performances I know are in the 20 plus range

From what I know, Mahler once wrote to Natalie Bauer-Lechner that the entire 4th symphony should last around 45 minutes!
Kubelik's performance lasts 52 minutes, he's (again) rather fast compared to many others.
In his autograph score Mahler has written down the amount of minutes that the movements should last: 15-10-11-8! (At least scholars assume that's what he meant by writing down these figures.)

Mahler kept revising his scores, including changing the tempos, often after a first performance. The Fourth, for example: the first printed proofs have different tempo indications than the autograph, and again different markings show up in the 1905 edition. Mahler's 1904 performance in Amsterdam had timings of 20-8-19-10. The first movement should be in an almost constant state of flux. Some early critics, comparing Mengelberg and Walter, thought Mengelberg's numerous changes of tempo were what Mahler wanted and Walter's more steady pacing was wrong (they'd probably crucify Boulez for his Fourth  ;D )

I also like Haitink's very slow Adagietto with the Berliner, because it's played in an intense way.
But, to be honest, I prefer Barshai. :)

Barshai: 8:26. Mahler would have approved. In Hamburg his Adagietto was clocked at 9 minutes. His disciples, Walter and Mengelberg, usually finished it off in less than 8, sometimes as fast as 7 minutes (Mengelberg's 1926 recording).

I still prefer it slower but I can happily listen to it at any speed and be seduced into any mood the music wants. Discussing the tempo of the Adagietto on another forum, someone recommended I hear Haitink. I should track that down. Thanks for reminding me. :)

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 04:38:07 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

greg

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2007, 04:37:18 AM »
I totally understand. But I do have my 'own' addictive single Mahler movements. If you do not mind, I'd like to share them with you. ;)

Second symphony: Finale (but 'only' the final chorus: Aufersteh'n, ja, aufersteh'n ..... I still - after all those years of listening - get very emotional at the point where the choir is singing: "Sterben werd' ich um zu leben!")
Fifth symphony: Third movement (Scherzo).
Seventh symphony: First movement.
Tenth symphony: Adagio in F sharp (first movement).
pretty much the same as mine, minus the 3rd from the 5th

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 21150
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2007, 04:49:42 AM »
is it me, or do any of you also find the second movement of Mahler's 7th symphony "nachtmusik I" addictive.

I do. I often listen to it separate from the other movements, or sometimes I'll just play the middle three (that first movement can be exhausting!). Titan, you really should hear what Klemperer does with this: he makes it sound almost like Webern! It's amazing. He makes you understand why Schönberg and company thought so highly of it.

In my youth it was the first movement of the Third I was addicted to. In fact, I didn't even care for the rest of the symphony (the Third was my problem Mahler...took me many, many years to absorb the whole).

Today, besides the Nachtmusik I, I listen to the Andante of the Sixth more than any other single Mahler movement.

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 04:51:41 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2007, 04:59:27 AM »
Why, you lads almost convince me to break out a recording of the Mahler Seventh:)

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 21150
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2007, 05:03:05 AM »
Why, you lads almost convince me to break out a recording of the Mahler Seventh:)

We Mahlerites continue to pray for you, Karl, and we have faith that eventually you'll see the Light and come worship at the altar with us  ;D

Seriously, the Seventh is worth investigating even if you don't end up with any significant appreciation.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

greg

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2007, 05:03:28 AM »
Why, you lads almost convince me to break out a recording of the Mahler Seventh:)
oh no way!
Karl's actually gonna do it  :o

for the seventh symphony, the only movement i ever listen to is the 1st, which is just mindblowing, full of Mahlerian activity and energy. The rest are more playful..... give it a listen and send me some thoughts.  8)


greg

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2007, 05:03:45 AM »
We Mahlerites continue to pray for you, Karl, and we have faith that eventually you'll see the Light and come worship at the altar with us  ;D

Seriously, the Seventh is worth investigating even if you don't end up with any significant appreciation.

Sarge
;D

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2007, 05:12:11 AM »
(* Gee, I wonder if Borders has the Dover score for the Mahler Seventh . . . . *)

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7617
  • An American Hero!
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2007, 05:16:44 AM »
(* Gee, I wonder if Borders has the Dover score for the Mahler Seventh . . . . *)

"Always give in to peer pressure!" - Homer Simpson    ;D

Do it, do it, do it!
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 21150
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2007, 05:42:47 AM »
:o ??

;D ;D

That's THE approach! Liked it. Take your time with the argumentation.

Of course I was joking about Mahler being wrong. But music is an interpretive art and unlike a painter, sculptor or author, a composer needs someone to present his art to the public. The composer knows how he wants his music to go but the rub is, trying to convince the performer to do it his way! It's somewhat analogous to digital media: once you put it out there, make it available to the world, you lose control of it and once a person (in this case a conductor) gets a hold of a score, he thinks he has the right to do anything he wants with it...within certain limiitations and rules. But that's what makes music so interesting: the Mona Lisa is never going to change (you've seen her once, you've seen her) but I've never heard a Mahler symphony performed the same way twice.

I don't know why performances have steadily become slower over the course of the twentieth century, but Mahler isn't the only composer affected (Bruckner too has suffered a steady erosion of speed). From a strictly personal point of view, I'd say it's happened because Mahler's music does sound better when a conductor take more time with it. Contrary to dB's assertion, the music is complex, there's a lot going on, details ARE important and shouldn't be glossed over or rushed by. I'm not unreasonable though; I don't demand slow tempos all the time. I appreciate a wide variety of interpretation; some of my favorite Sixths, for example, are on the fast side (Solti, Szell). Kubelik, though, is obviously nuts ;D

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 05:48:19 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Greta

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2007, 06:19:20 AM »
I've also been dangerously addicted to the 1st movement of the 3rd. I've forcibly put it on the shelf until the score arrives. But thanks to that I've gotten to know that mvmt really well. It's still my favorite mvmt of that symphony, but the final mvmt is close behind.

Maybe it's just me, but I just hear Shostakovich 5th everytime in that opening. (The rising horns with the full orchestra dum-dum) The 3rd and 5th have openings that just grab you by the throat. I'd give anything to hear those symphonies live!!

So many great things just in that 1st mvmt. of the 3rd. The contrast between the funeral march of the frozen earth and the sweet and boisterous sounds of awakening summer. The light and the dark side. (I like the dark side better!  8)) I love those falling trombone glissandos, especially when they're really nasty! His brass writing is to die for.

There's this one moment that I adore the most: It's after the first long trombone solo, when the whole section comes in, and suddenly goes into this fanfare in a major key that slows down and ends nastily back in the minor key with the full orchestra and a muted trumpet call. (In Chailly 9:14-9:25, and he's got some low-down dirty trombones!)

Then this nationalistic march out of nowhere, which sounds English to my ears. Crazy. And Chailly plays it so cute and mockingly. ;) Such proper stiff-upper lip playing when a few minutes before they were unwashed brutes, I love it.

At around 17 min is that the posthorn solo? It sounds a lot like a euphonium or baritone. I think they're close to the same thing.

Then the circus appears! (With the shrill trilling winds and tamborine and oom-pah accompaniment.) But it's kind of like a broken amusement ride. Especially with the off-kilter snare drum cadence, this part right here is so Ives to me!

And suddenly we're back at the beginning again. Winter tries one more time but her trombone is seized by the haze of summer and ends up swooning in the major key. Leading tones are used to great effect in his themes here.

For the last time, summer marches in from the distance, with great pompous fanfare. And what's this, the trombones have submitted! They take over the melody, joyfully, happily singing a song of summer.

And finally everybody dances around the Maypole, rounding up with a perfectly royal brass chorale and fanfare. (God, the brass players must have their lips falling off by this point.) The ending (the last minute) is so brilliant, another favorite part. Charge!!

And, I wasn't going to listen to the while darn mvmt again! Dang it, Sarge...  ;D

The 7th is best taken a movement at a time, and I do find myself listening to that mvmt often. But like the 3rd, it's also locked away until I get the score! Again, this macabre march weaving in and out of major and minor, like a broken music box. Utterly hypnotic. There's so much I still don't understand about that symphony. Which is why I love it.

*This post has been edited because I had too many emoticons the 1st time around. See what Mahler does to me?! Ach, help!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 06:25:15 AM by Greta »

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 21150
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2007, 07:05:16 AM »
I've also been dangerously addicted to the 1st movement of the 3rd...I'd give anything to hear those symphonies live!!

I enjoy reading your detailed, subjective responses to Mahler. It's great witnessing someone discovering Mahler for the first time. This post, on the Third, was superb, Greta, and expresses closely what I feel about the music.

I've been lucky this year: I heard Chailly, Petra Lang and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig perform the Third. It was a concert celebrating the anniversary of the new Gewandhaus. It was one of the truly great experiences of my life. Last month we went to Berlin for the Staatskapelle's Mahler Cycle: we heard Boulez in the Eighth and Barenboim conducted the Fifth and Seventh. Oh my...  (You're a member of operashare? Good quality mp3s of the Seventh and Eighth were posted shortly after the concerts.)

I'm leaving shortly to attend a Hilary Hahn recital in Mannheim but I'll comment further when I get back home.

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 07:09:33 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

greg

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2007, 07:23:58 AM »
(* Gee, I wonder if Borders has the Dover score for the Mahler Seventh . . . . *)
unlikely, unless it's a big Borders.... (but still possible)

hey, i want that score too  :'(

karlhenning

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2007, 07:32:04 AM »
unlikely, unless it's a big Borders.... (but still possible)

The Borders on School Street, in terms of the Dover scores they carry, is but a shell of its former self.

Neither the School Street nor the Boylston Street store has this 'un.

And of course, the Boston Music Company is long gone . . . .

bwv 1080

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2007, 07:35:39 AM »
The Borders on School Street, in terms of the Dover scores they carry, is but a shell of its former self.

Neither the School Street nor the Boylston Street store has this 'un.

And of course, the Boston Music Company is long gone . . . .

There is always eBay, where I got my Mahler 7 Score

Greta

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2007, 09:25:46 AM »
Mine is on its way from Amazon Marketplace for ~$10.

We should have a GMG M7 Listening Party! :D

Offline zamyrabyrd

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3011
  • selig sind
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2007, 10:11:47 AM »
I doubt the Adagietto was a musical love letter. The Adagietto and the Lieder Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen share themes and to my ears express the same feelings. It seems a very strange way to profess love by using a song that says, "I have lost track of the world with which I used to waste much time...I am dead to the world...I live alone in my heaven, in my loving, in my song."...Sarge

Yes, indeed! I'm SO glad you mentioned this. And it's in the same key of F. You have the same notes even, C, D, F and A. Now for yet ANOTHER connection to the Lied von der Erde the same A to middle C oscillation that Lenny mentioned in the Norton lectures on the Adagietto (see below link*) opens that movement. I think it may be harp as well in the Lied. There seems to be quite a bit of motivic interlinking in his works. Maybe someone should do a study, or perhaps it has already been done...

*http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,437.msg11979.html#msg11979
Zb
"I write to discover what I know."
 ― Flannery O'Connor

Offline zamyrabyrd

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3011
  • selig sind
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2007, 10:18:47 AM »

His themes are really beautiful here. Those passionate cries full of chromaticism after the opening march, wow, it simply explodes. Truly amazing writing. It's very interesting how he's in minor, and then will suddenly have a fanfare (the one at the end of that first big outburst) end on major chords, like the dark side's devilish false triumph.


Hi Greta,
I also pulled out a recording of the 5th with Mehta and the New York Phil and thought more or less the same thing about the major chords in the first movement. Somehow they are all the more bitter than the minor would be in their place. Those first few bars are amazing and need an absolutely fearless leader to call on the orchestra to "follow me". Fortunately, in this recording the trumpeter was more than up to standard.

Zb
"I write to discover what I know."
 ― Flannery O'Connor

Steve

  • Guest
Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2007, 11:46:49 AM »
Mine is on its way from Amazon Marketplace for ~$10.

We should have a GMG M7 Listening Party! :D

My, now that's an idea.  :)

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK