Author Topic: Mahler Mania, Rebooted  (Read 357553 times)

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Drasko

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2007, 06:04:44 AM »
That is odd. Have you heard any explanation why he'd be so slow in Philly and Paris, but so fast in Vienna?

He was odd.

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2007, 06:08:15 AM »
He was odd.

 ;D :D ;D

Aren't we all  ;D

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 06:50:31 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline edward

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2007, 06:13:56 AM »
A random question which may well fit nicely here: Has anyone heard Zender's Mahler 7? I've a feeling he'd do a really job with this piece (composer's perspective and all).
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Steve

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2007, 07:32:03 AM »
A random question which may well fit nicely here: Has anyone heard Zender's Mahler 7? I've a feeling he'd do a really job with this piece (composer's perspective and all).

Its a marvelous 7th. Ideal tempi transitions, good sound, and just the right amount of energy. Easy rec.

Drasko

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2007, 07:51:10 AM »
Its a marvelous 7th. Ideal tempi transitions, good sound, and just the right amount of energy. Easy rec.

That is all very lovely but where to find the bloody thing. I've been wanting to hear it for years and never could track down a copy.

Offline from the new world

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2007, 10:13:20 AM »
I added Maazel, Sinopoli, Neumann, Barbirolli, Levine and noted the Scherchen I have is with the ORTF (this is the infamous Fifth with the major cut in the Scherzo):

Walter/NYPO: 7:43
Barshai/JDP: 8:17
Rattle/CBSO: 9:32
Neumann/Gewand Leipzig: 9:40
Solti/CSO/1990: 9:42
Kubelik/BRSO: 9:44
Barenboim/CSO: 9:45
Solti/CSO 1970: 9:51
Barbirolli/New Philh: 9:52
Kletzki/PO: 9:57
Bertini/Cologne: 10:06
Chailly/RCO: 10:16
Sinopoli/Philh: 10:28
Maazel/Vienna: 10:33
Haitink/RCO: 10:37
Mehta/NYP 10:50 
Levi/Atlanta: 11:06
Bernstein/Vienna: 11:13
Karajan/Berlin: 11:53
Abbado/CSO: 11:55
Levine/Philadelphia: 12:03
Eschenbach/Houston: 12:19
Scherchen/ORTF: 13:07
Scherchen/Philadelphia: 15:12

I would just have to add two further recordings, Haitink/BPO: 13:55, and Cobra/ Europa Philharmonia: 16:48 (adagietto only)

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2007, 11:05:51 AM »
I would just have to add two further recordings, Haitink/BPO: 13:55, and Cobra/ Europa Philharmonia: 16:48 (adagietto only)


Thanks, I was hoping someone would add the timing for Haitink/Berlin.

Sarge

Edit: Maxiamanno Cobra's version can be downloaded here:

http://www.hodie-world.com/listenmahler_v.html

Go to the bottom of the page and right click the speaker symbol. It's a small file (less than 4mb), low quality (sounds synthetic in parts) but you'll get the idea.

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 11:34:00 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2007, 12:22:40 PM »

You certainly do have a point there. Maybe I was a bit too enthousiastic, and therefore too hasty, with my 'interpretation'....

Should I post this? ;)

Ich leb' allein in meinem Himmel,
In meinem Lieben, in meinem Lied!


Beautiful verses!
Beautiful music!

I'm not ignoring you, Marc. I'm still digesting your post and will reply eventually.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Greta

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2007, 02:50:49 PM »
Quote
I would just have to add two further recordings, Haitink/BPO: 13:55, and Cobra/ Europa Philharmonia: 16:48 (adagietto only)

Big difference between the two Haitinks, interesting. Does anyone have Lenny's times besides with Vienna?

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2007, 02:28:14 PM »
Big difference between the two Haitinks, interesting. Does anyone have Lenny's times besides with Vienna?

11:05, with the New York Phil on Sony

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline MishaK

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #90 on: May 08, 2007, 07:33:58 AM »
Frankly, I don't think overall tempo matters much. If you compare the three major Mahler disciples who performed his music in his presence or under his tutelage - i.e. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer - you realize that even among these firsthand witnesses there is no consensus at all. They differ so widely in their approach to the music that you can't really speak of a single "correct" approach that Mahler would have "approved" of.

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #91 on: May 08, 2007, 08:31:55 AM »
I really like where he puts the 3rd, you're waiting and expecting it right on the big major chord after the gong, but he waits until after the wandering violin melody and BAM, puts it on that big minor chord crash. Fantastic.

Yes, that is where the third hammerblow should be located (i.e. if it is indeed being reinsterted).  The hero thinks that he has escaped the blow since it does not happen where it did previously... and then BAM.  I think that the Makerras is a fabulous M6.  I actually re-burned the CD in Scherzo-Andante order, since that is my preference.  I also love swift Andante movements like this one, which IIRC clocks in around 14'. 

I also whole-heartedly agree with your accolades for the Eschenbach M5.  I live in Houston but am ashamed that I missed out on the Eschenbach years (although we are very fortunate to have Hans Graf these days).  His M6 with Philly is a big favorite of mine. 

It's interesting reading all of Sarge's comments.  He and I have totally different preferences for Mahler slow movements -- I prefer these all be played more swiftly M2-2, M3-2, M3-6, M4-3, M4-4, M5-4, M6-A, M7-4, M10-1, M10-5 (but not M9 BTW).  However, like Sarge I can get plenty of enjoyment from these played at just about ANY tempo. 

Scott

Offline stingo

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #92 on: May 08, 2007, 09:09:00 AM »
I also whole-heartedly agree with your accolades for the Eschenbach M5.  I live in Houston but am ashamed that I missed out on the Eschenbach years (although we are very fortunate to have Hans Graf these days).  His M6 with Philly is a big favorite of mine. 

The chamber movement on that CD is great too.

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2007, 02:04:21 PM »
It's interesting reading all of Sarge's comments....I prefer these all be played more swiftly...M4-4

I'm old...old farts like to take things slow. ;D

Seriously, I urge anyone who loves the Fourth (even those who want to get the Finale over with as quickly as possible  ;) ) to hear Maazel and Battle and Vienna. I don't believe there is a slower finale but it seems to me just perfect: heaven is about eternity; there's no need to rush. :)

I'll never understand why this isn't at the top of everyone's list, but anyway...I was checking Gramophone today because I was considering buying Haitink's Berlin Fifth (with that extremely slow Adagietto). It comes coupled with his Berlin Fourth. Here's what the reviewer said comparing it to Maazel:

"Unfortunately, there is little of that indefinable quality of radiance which has made Lorin Maazel's second recording such a firm favourite. Even more than Haitink, Maazel will have 'intellectualized' his interpretative options. The results are very different. Dawdling over phrase-ends and daringly slow, he is helped by Kathleen Battle's detailed characterization to project a lighter, more genuinely childlike vision, especially moving in the closing stages where the limpid playing of the VPO really comes into its own."

This movement, played and sung this way, is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. It just might convince you, Scott, that slower sometimes is better...or not  :)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline PaulR

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #94 on: May 08, 2007, 02:14:06 PM »
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask.

But next semester, I am playing Mahler 4 in school, so I was wondering what good recordings of it I should look for.  Thanks :)

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #95 on: May 08, 2007, 02:16:20 PM »
Frankly, I don't think overall tempo matters much. If you compare the three major Mahler disciples who performed his music in his presence or under his tutelage - i.e. Mengelberg, Walter, Klemperer - you realize that even among these firsthand witnesses there is no consensus at all. They differ so widely in their approach to the music that you can't really speak of a single "correct" approach that Mahler would have "approved" of.

During Mahler's lifetime the tempos were pretty consistent (performances were rare anyway). The big changes came after Mahler's death, with each disciple writing his own gospel, so to speak. But you're right, O: it doesn't matter and this takes me back to my earlier post when I said Mahler had been wrong about his tempos. Of course he wasn't literally wrong but music depends on individual interpretation and tempos are never going to be agreed on. (Most conductors ignore Beethoven's tempo indications; they must think he was wrong!). I think the music has slowed down because it sounds better that way. That's the way I prefer to hear it anyway (generally speaking; there are exceptions).

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #96 on: May 08, 2007, 02:19:20 PM »
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask.

But next semester, I am playing Mahler 4 in school, so I was wondering what good recordings of it I should look for.  Thanks :)

Szell and Maazel are both in the top tier and both are budget priced. I prefer Maazel because I'm in love with Kathleen Battle's voice...and because Maazel gives her all the room she needs.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline MishaK

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #97 on: May 08, 2007, 02:31:35 PM »
During Mahler's lifetime the tempos were pretty consistent (performances were rare anyway).

Says who?

(Most conductors ignore Beethoven's tempo indications; they must think he was wrong!). I think the music has slowed down because it sounds better that way. That's the way I prefer to hear it anyway (generally speaking; there are exceptions).

What is appropriate with any given band in any given acoustic is relative. I welcome the variety. I am reminded of the Boulez quote that I posted in the old forum before. When asked why he often ignores some of the markings in his own scores when performing his own works, Boulez replied "When I compose, I cook with water. When I conduct, I cook with fire!" I doubt Beethoven himself took all of his metronome markings literally when he performed.

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #98 on: May 08, 2007, 02:34:57 PM »
Says who?

La Grange in his book Gustav Mahler

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Mahler Mania, Rebooted
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2007, 02:46:49 PM »
What is appropriate with any given band in any given acoustic is relative.

That's one consideration but it doesn't explain why one conductor's Adagietto is 7 minutes long and another's 15.

Quote
I welcome the variety.

So do I. It would be a very dull world if everyone played the music the same way. But we are often asked to state our ultimate preferences...and we all do have preferences. We all know what recordings we'd take to the desert island. Few of us would say, it does't matter, give me any old recording. Tempo is often a crucial factor...well, for me it is anyway.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"