Author Topic: Franz Schubert  (Read 54424 times)

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Offline Paul-Michel

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Franz Schubert
« on: April 25, 2008, 05:54:19 AM »
It is my personal conviction that out of every composer I know, Schubert must surely be considered the most consistently brilliant.

Yes, there is something boyish about his music, but that makes it all the more sensitive. For this innocence makes the music more sincere, especially in moments of dramatic power.

Furthermore, this 'power' is particularly interesting, for it is both subtle (in his piano music) and more overt as in his eighth symphony. I am not sure Beethoven can be considered anywhere near as brilliant in this grasp of the subtleties of power. Schubert's music is so intelligent in its personal simplicity, without embodying the hardcore enlightentment concepts that Beethoven does. It is this quality that makes his music so timeless. It is about emotions, every day ones, about things in life we all experience, rather than more the meta-narrative ideas of Beethoven or Wagner.

For a young composer, and one so restrained from bombast, I also always admire his confidence to make such music without massive statements flowing through it, while avoiding the outright boredom of many of the supposed sincere composers we are supposed to enjoy (like bach!).

He gets me going every time.

Am I a madman?

Offline Todd

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 06:19:37 AM »
Am I a madman?


Yes.  But Schubert is still among the very greatest, and I can understand why you appreciate him the way you do.  Can't say I agree with the statements about Beethoven, but so it goes.
The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

MN Dave

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 07:43:45 AM »
Schubert is in my first tier of composers.

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 08:10:59 AM »
Schubert is in my first tier of composers.

So is he in mine, but I hardly see why it's necessary to denigrate Bach or Beethoven in order to exalt him.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

MN Dave

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 08:12:14 AM »
So is he in mine, but I hardly see why it's necessary to denigrate Bach or Beethoven in order to exalt him.

They're in my first tier as well.  0:)

BorisG

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 11:00:58 AM »
Now that that's decided, what's next? ::)

Offline Paul-Michel

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 11:09:19 AM »
So is he in mine, but I hardly see why it's necessary to denigrate Bach or Beethoven in order to exalt him.
[/quote

What is wrong with everyone here? Why must everything be taken so seriously?

Also, I don't see how I deingrated beethoven. But you would see it as that, because you treat these people like gods.

Offline Todd

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 11:41:33 AM »
Why must everything be taken so seriously?



Because internet forums are the most important things ever in the history of the world.
The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline matti

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 12:14:54 PM »
Quote

Am I a madman?

No idea, but of all composers, Schubert just may be nearest and dearest to me too.

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 12:48:23 PM »
What is wrong with everyone here?
- So long as you include yourself in that "everyone"  . . .

Why must everything be taken so seriously?
- Because for once you seemed to be trying to start a serious discussion.

Also, I don't see how I deingrated beethoven.
- "I am not sure Beethoven can be considered anywhere near as brilliant in this grasp of the subtleties of power."

But you would see it as that, because you treat these people like gods.
- Actually I don't. Beethoven was deeply flawed as a man, and has his share of less than stellar compositions. But I treat Beethoven and Bach with as deep a level of reverence as you do Schubert.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Ten thumbs

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 12:57:56 PM »
Schubert has long been my favorite composer. One is tempted to a defensive reaction although this isn't really necessary. Treating composers like gods is not really justified. Composers in different ages have been faced with differing creative problems and it is not possible to compare them like for like. Schubert's melodic gifts are second to none and he knew how to use them to build strong musical structures. What more can you ask?
A day may be a destiny; for life
Lives in but little—but that little teems
With some one chance, the balance of all time:
A look—a word—and we are wholly changed.

Offline Holden

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 01:38:15 PM »
Schubert is also one of my favourites and I suppose the thing that stands out for me is his melodic invention. If I was asked to name some of the most moving pieces of melody ever written, Schubert immediately comes to mind - well before Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart or even Bach. The only comoser who comes close is Chopin. Just listen to the String Quintet in C major - one of the music wolds greatest masterpieces IMO and you can see why. But to really hear Schubert at his best you have to listen to his lieder. Such beautiful and moving melodies. Even the simpler ones like Nacht und Traum are just superb.
Cheers

Holden

Offline Paul-Michel

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 02:30:29 PM »
Schubert is also one of my favourites and I suppose the thing that stands out for me is his melodic invention. If I was asked to name some of the most moving pieces of melody ever written, Schubert immediately comes to mind - well before Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart or even Bach. The only comoser who comes close is Chopin. Just listen to the String Quintet in C major - one of the music wolds greatest masterpieces IMO and you can see why. But to really hear Schubert at his best you have to listen to his lieder. Such beautiful and moving melodies. Even the simpler ones like Nacht und Traum are just superb.

Yes, I should have used that word: melody, for it is in using mechanism his sensitivity comes across.

I agree about the lieder, I've got that massive 21cd box set with Moore/Fisher Dieskau - very good.

I hardly think, still, that saying Schibert uses subtlety better than beethoven is denigrating, thats a very strong word!

Bach Man

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 03:45:51 PM »
It is my personal conviction that out of every composer I know, Schubert must surely be considered the most consistently brilliant.
I wouldn't call him consistently brilliant. Schuberts massive output is an uneven body of work, sometimes desperately boring, yet his best works are among the supreme masterpieces of music. He also lacks the diversity of Beethoven and Bach, but had he lived longer that might have been different. I put him first among the second tiers.

Offline BachQ

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 04:01:05 PM »
He also lacks the diversity of Beethoven and Bach, but had he lived longer that might have been different.

Speaking of diversity, I wish Schubert had composed a piano concerto or violin concerto ..........

Offline Ten thumbs

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2008, 01:30:06 PM »
Yet there is far more diversity in Schubert's music than in, say, that of Wagner or Mahler, and, yes, Beethoven and Bach are both at times boring. We do, for instance have masses and piano duets. There is also some very fine music in his operas and it is unfortunate that the librettos are so poor.
A day may be a destiny; for life
Lives in but little—but that little teems
With some one chance, the balance of all time:
A look—a word—and we are wholly changed.

Offline jochanaan

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2008, 03:53:35 PM »
Speaking of diversity, I wish Schubert had composed a piano concerto or violin concerto ..........
It might have been interesting, but I wonder if Schubert didn't realize, at least subconsciously, that he was better at the smaller, subtler forms and could not out-Beethoven Beethoven.  (The Great C Major Symphony is a wonderful exception, whether it's #9 or #7. ;D)

I don't think we can say for sure that either Schubert or Beethoven were "better."  They were too different in temperament. But we can say for sure that they were both among the greatest musicians who ever set pen to paper.
Imagination + discipline = creativity

Offline BachQ

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2008, 06:38:17 PM »
It might have been interesting, but I wonder if Schubert didn't realize, at least subconsciously, that he was better at the smaller, subtler forms and could not out-Beethoven Beethoven.  (The Great C Major Symphony is a wonderful exception, whether it's #9 or #7. ;D)

Schubert could churn out large-scale works along with the best of them.  0:)  In addition to the Great C Major Symphony, he wrote six compelling large-scale masses, an oratorio, and over a dozen operas ( :o ) ....... all within his short lifetime.  0:)  They are not as well known as his small-scale stuff, but he certainly could master large-scale materials ..........

My guess is that he simply never got around to the concerto form/genre ..........  :'(

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 06:52:56 PM »
while avoiding the outright boredom of many of the supposed sincere composers we are supposed to enjoy (like bach!).

Will you people get your hands off Bach?

The problem with Schubert is that once you get over his melodies (which will happen eventually), there's nothing really to go back to, where as i could probably listen to Bach to the end of infinity and not get bored with him.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 01:23:20 PM by Josquin des Prez »

Offline jochanaan

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Re: Franz Schubert
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2008, 07:10:11 PM »
Schubert could churn out large-scale works along with the best of them.  0:)  In addition to the Great C Major Symphony, he wrote six compelling large-scale masses, an oratorio, and over a dozen operas ( :o ) ....... all within his short lifetime.  0:)  They are not as well known as his small-scale stuff, but he certainly could master large-scale materials ..........
Uh, good point. :-[ I withdraw my earlier comment. :)
Imagination + discipline = creativity

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