Author Topic: Dvorak's Den  (Read 68432 times)

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Offline ørfeo

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #540 on: July 28, 2016, 03:33:37 AM »
Yes, I agree that the main theme really dominates and gives that effect.

It's certainly not a straightforward example of the genre!
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Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #541 on: July 28, 2016, 04:49:53 AM »
Ok yes, there is actually a development.

Structure is
exposition (first theme bars 1-80, transition bars 81-92, second theme bars 93-116, closing theme bars 117-130)
bipartite development starting at bar 131 (horn fanfare) and ending at bar 227 (bass clarinet solo)
recapitulation (first theme 228-282—the opening bars omitted and some tonal changes, transition 283-291, second theme 292-337—expanded with new material, closing theme 338-349)
coda from bar 350 (recurrence of 1st movement motive in winds)

The "sonata form without development" feeling probably comes out of the way the development section focuses exclusively on the main theme, apart from the closing theme appearing again to set up Part 2. This makes it feel like an extension of those opening 20-30 bars of the first theme that don't recur in the recapitulation. Those opening bars in turn were highly developmental in texture and harmony, so I guess I interpreted it as a feeling of "development - exposition - development 2: electric boogaloo - recapitulation".
You figured all that out? I am impressed.

Offline Brian

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #542 on: August 01, 2016, 04:56:07 PM »
Ok yes, there is actually a development.

Structure is
exposition (first theme bars 1-80, transition bars 81-92, second theme bars 93-116, closing theme bars 117-130)
bipartite development starting at bar 131 (horn fanfare) and ending at bar 227 (bass clarinet solo)
recapitulation (first theme 228-282—the opening bars omitted and some tonal changes, transition 283-291, second theme 292-337—expanded with new material, closing theme 338-349)
coda from bar 350 (recurrence of 1st movement motive in winds)

The "sonata form without development" feeling probably comes out of the way the development section focuses exclusively on the main theme, apart from the closing theme appearing again to set up Part 2. This makes it feel like an extension of those opening 20-30 bars of the first theme that don't recur in the recapitulation. Those opening bars in turn were highly developmental in texture and harmony, so I guess I interpreted it as a feeling of "development - exposition - development 2: electric boogaloo - recapitulation".
Thank you so much for this. I will listen to this symphony closely soon with your post handy.

You figured all that out? I am impressed.
Not too surprising; amw is a badass.

Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #543 on: August 01, 2016, 05:00:40 PM »
Thank you so much for this. I will listen to this symphony closely soon with your post handy.
Not too surprising; amw is a badass.
Now all scholarship needs to be peer-reviewed. Who is going to do that?
Our friend Sforzando seems like he knows his way around a score or two, maybe he will chime in?

Offline ørfeo

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #544 on: August 02, 2016, 05:04:41 AM »
Now all scholarship needs to be peer-reviewed. Who is going to do that?

It's as if my post before amw's never existed...
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Offline Brian

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #545 on: August 02, 2016, 06:20:32 AM »
It's as if my post before amw's never existed...

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #546 on: August 02, 2016, 06:44:37 AM »
Now all scholarship needs to be peer-reviewed. Who is going to do that?
Our friend Sforzando seems like he knows his way around a score or two, maybe he will chime in?

I'm sorry; I just found this post by accident. So I don't have to slog through this entire thread, just what am I supposed to chime about?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Brian

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #547 on: August 02, 2016, 06:48:57 AM »
I'm sorry; I just found this post by accident. So I don't have to slog through this entire thread, just what am I supposed to chime about?
Apparently PW wants someone to double-check amw's perfectly thorough post on the finale of the Symphony No. 5. I'm not sure why; there's a faint whiff of condescension in the air.

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #548 on: August 02, 2016, 07:01:18 AM »
Apparently PW wants someone to double-check amw's perfectly thorough post on the finale of the Symphony No. 5. I'm not sure why; there's a faint whiff of condescension in the air.

Faint aromatic molecules are reaching me even as we speak. (Oh wait, that's the croissants coming out of the oven at the Barnes & Noble café where I am now ensconced.) My experience with amw has been that amw knows his stuff; hence if I "double-check" at some point when I have nothing better to do, I expect to find nothing amiss.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #549 on: August 02, 2016, 07:19:45 AM »
Apparently PW wants someone to double-check amw's perfectly thorough post on the finale of the Symphony No. 5. I'm not sure why; there's a faint whiff of condescension in the air.
No there isn't ! It was a joke ! I appreciate amw's analysis.
It's as if my post before amw's never existed...
I appreciate your post also :)
I for one couldn't really make heads or tails of this movement.
Faint aromatic molecules are reaching me even as we speak. (Oh wait, that's the croissants coming out of the oven at the Barnes & Noble café where I am now ensconced.) My experience with amw has been that amw knows his stuff; hence if I "double-check" at some point when I have nothing better to do, I expect to find nothing amiss.
I thought they all closed down. I used to be a member but discontinued my membership and never bought any item from there again after they refuse to replace my lost membership card - likely thinking that I was lying and wanted a SECOND card so someone else can use it...
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 07:25:24 AM by PerfectWagnerite »

Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #550 on: August 16, 2016, 03:26:19 PM »
I heard "My Home" from this recording:



Easily the finest rendition of that piece which I never used to like. Just great conducting, idiomatic in every sense of the word, from Previn with the LAPO never sounding more fresh and committed, anywhere. Gotta be heard to be believed.

Offline cilgwyn

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #551 on: October 06, 2016, 04:42:05 AM »


Dear Deidre

 I've been living under a lake for the last four hundred years and I'm increasingly worried about my appearance.
I wonder if you could please provide me with some tips? I've tried various skin creams but they don't seem to help.


                                                                                                                                       Yours Faithfully

                                                                                                                                        A. Walter Goblin

Offline cilgwyn

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #552 on: October 12, 2016, 04:50:04 AM »
Looks a bit like Baldrick!
I received a s/h copy of the Supraphon set od Dvorak's The Spectres Bride,yesterday. A nice low price;albeit,one very small red label on the front corner inlay. One of those embossed things you made yourself,with one of those hand held gadgets. They had a roll of plastic sort of tape in them? Do they still make them,by the way?! It looks very neat,and seems to blend in with the purple on the paper inlay. The seller probably didn't notice it,fair play! I might try and see if it peels off. On the other hand,it possibly adds a bit of character?!!!

Now onto the music!! This is the first time I have heard The Spectre's Bride. What a lusty,rousing colourful piece?! If anyone did think choral music was dull;this ghoulish ballad is just the ticket! It's an absolute cracker.......I loved it;and the performance is terrific. I love those old Eastern bloc recordings. The sound is very good for the period too,imho. As to the Novak. Again,I have been aware of this music for years. I remember reading the original Gramophone recording for the later stereo recording;which is unfortunately too expensive for me s/h (I have looked on Amazon,ebay & the Music Magpie sites). I may download it later,however. That said,I'm quite happy with the old mono recording on cd 2 of this set. Having an interest in vintage recordings,old mono recordings don't bother me. Indeed,I actually like them! ??? ;D Anyway,to my ears this is a pretty good sounding recording for it's period and you do get that sound from the orchestra and vocalists that makes some of those ancient old eastern bloc recordings so collectable. Also,even if I could have bought the stereo recording I would have wanted to hear this one at some point. Technology aside,the singing and playing is wonderful;and what a fantastic piece of music this is. Novak's The Storm really deserves all the praise it gets in some sane quarters! It is hard to believe that it has received so few recordings. Nice cover art on this Supraphon set,too ! (I like their coloured cds!) I rather miss the old postage stamps these days!! Absolutely fantastic music on both cds. The Spectre's Bride and The Storm deserve to be heard allot more than they do.......and vandermolen is absolutely 100% right about the inspirational quality of the latter. Again,as per The Spectre's Bride,if anyone thinks choral music is dull,or stuffy they need to hear Novak's The Storm;although younger people may need to start with the stereo recording. Marvellous! Sometimes superlatives just aren't enough!!!

Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #553 on: October 12, 2016, 05:53:47 AM »
I am finding a newfound appreciation for some of his concert overtures. I mentioned "My Home" already. The other day I listened to "Hussite". They are direct, sincere, well-constructed and expertly orchestrated.

Offline Brian

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #554 on: October 25, 2016, 09:48:23 AM »
Are there different or controversial editions of the Third Symphony? Because I was just listening to this recording on NML:



and there is a substantial section of the first movement's coda (9:18 to 9:48) which is VERY different from all the other recordings I've ever heard. Compare it to 10:09-10:33 on Rowicki, or 8:41-9:00 on Suitner, or 10:09-10:32.

Macal is clearly conducting a COMPLETELY different score for 30 seconds. Not only is the instrumentation/balance changed, but the theme being presented is different! And the timpani interjections are gone. Until now, I had absolutely no inkling - had never heard even a suggestion - of multiple performing editions of this symphony.

Offline Brian

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #555 on: October 25, 2016, 09:57:38 AM »
Have just read that between the premiere in 1874 and a subsequent performance in the 1880s, Dvorak did make a number of changes. Maybe Macal is performing the "original" version? Anybody have liner notes for this?

EDIT: Whoa! More departures from the original, at 9:55 in the slow movement...

Offline ørfeo

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #556 on: October 25, 2016, 12:54:19 PM »
I found a couple of online copies of this album that, for Symphony no.3, say "Simrock edition" as a subtitle.

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Offline SymphonicAddict

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #557 on: February 20, 2017, 07:58:53 PM »
Here is another great fan of this impressive composer!! He is one of my 10 favorite composers of all time. I love his charming symphonies, especially 5 to 9: his orchestration, his melodies, those are simply perfects, I never tire of listening to them. The tone poems and overtures are superb, are just amazing! He has nothing to envy to other geniuses of the same genre. His best concertante work is the Cello concerto op. 104, the soul of cello expressing a lot of feelings. On the other hand, about his chamber works well... how much excellent stuff is there: string quartets, piano quintets, piano quartets, string quintets, string sextet, piano trios, Bagatelles op. 47, etc. My favorite chamber work is the Piano quintet, op. 81: this is absolutely masterly, I think is the best piano quintet ever (highlighting the 2nd movement)

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #558 on: February 20, 2017, 08:25:27 PM »
Have just read that between the premiere in 1874 and a subsequent performance in the 1880s, Dvorak did make a number of changes. Maybe Macal is performing the "original" version? Anybody have liner notes for this?

EDIT: Whoa! More departures from the original, at 9:55 in the slow movement...
According to wiki:
Quote
The composition was revised by Dvořák in 1887–1889, though not printed until 1912 (after the composer's death) by N. Simrock in Berlin.
Offenbach gets a raw deal in recordings considering his talent! For a discussion of this outstanding composer too little recorded: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5572.

Offline Maestro267

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Re: Dvorak's Den
« Reply #559 on: November 08, 2017, 02:20:28 AM »
Looking at Dvorák complete symphonies boxsets, and the Belohlavek one looks right up my street. It doesn't split any of the symphonies across two discs, instead pairing the first three symphonies with one of the three major concerti on the first three discs. That's the right way to do it!

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