General Religion Poll: Religion Principles vs Basic Human Rights?

[ChamberNut]

When these are in conflict, which should supersede the other?

[Don]

I voted no.  For any religion, the principles must have top priority.  If not, you might as well scratch the religion.

[karlhenning]

It's also a dodgy dichotomy;  one reminds the OP that many human rights which our society now takes for granted, are the fruit of religious principles.

[71 dB]

Basic human rights on top (yes).

For any religion, the principles must have top priority.  If not, you might as well scratch the religion.

This is why I don't like religions.

[david johnson]

they should be in agreement.  'do unto others as you would have them do to you' should be a requirement for both religious and non-religious peoples...not sure i would extend such to the masochists though...ouch!

dj

[bwv 1080]

So did the Israelites that massacred the Canaanites at Jericho and other locations in the OT commit a sin?

Or are both religious principles and human rights relative to time and place?

[Xenophanes]

When these are in conflict, which should supersede the other?

Grace presupposes nature, which for me is basic Christian theology.  Therefore, they should not conflict. i don't much like the choices, but of the two, I picked "Yes." It's a kind of simplistic way of looking at the whole subject, though.

[Guido]

It's also a dodgy dichotomy;  one reminds the OP that many human rights which our society now takes for granted, are the fruit of religious principles.

But equally, many are not. I can't be bothered to answer this thread properly, as I am as bored of these small matters as much as you are Karl, but if you don't want people to attack a clichéed version of Christianity then don't mention old clichées such as this!

[Keemun]

I am unable to vote for the reasons explained below.  0:)

First, my definition of "basic human rights" may differ from others' definitions.  Unless we agree on a definition, each of us is answering a different question.  I'm not suggesting that we try to define "basic human rights" because that will spin this thread off into a debate on abortion, assisted suicide and other such topics.  I'm merely pointing out the problem I have with the question as it is posed. 

Second, my definition of "basic human rights" is derived from my religion, and I do not distinguish between the two.  However, the question refers more broadly to "religious principle" in general, not one's own religious principle.  Certainly there are religions whose principles conflict with my definition of basic human rights (as derived from my religious principle). 

If I vote for "basic human rights" I am voting for my religious principle, but I am also voting for an undefined set of "basic human rights" with which I may disagree. If I vote for "religious principle", I am voting for my religious principle as well as those religious principles with which I disagree.  Voting for "undecided" is not an option because I am not undecided.  Therefore, I simply cannot choose one of the available options.   

[Joe_Campbell]

I would like to see a list of all 'basic human rights' and why they are so. As Keemum said, this pole becomes very pointless if there isn't agreement on the BHR.

[david johnson]

So did the Israelites that massacred the Canaanites at Jericho and other locations in the OT commit a sin?

Or are both religious principles and human rights relative to time and place?

read the preceeding action to the battle.  if the Lord used a nation as a sword at that time it was His affair.  the emphasis from Jesus (my scripture implication) was to employ the 'golden rule' and extend it beyond the tribal understanding earlier hebrews had.

dj

[val]

I think that a religious person should follow the principles of her faith, unless, of course, they lead to crime.

For the others, like me, there will be no conflict.

[Xenophanes]

So did the Israelites that massacred the Canaanites at Jericho and other locations in the OT commit a sin?

Or are both religious principles and human rights relative to time and place?

Fortunately, it appears that those events didn't really happen.

The knowledge of right and wrong is progressive.

[bwv 1080]

Fortunately, it appears that those events didn't really happen.

The knowledge of right and wrong is progressive.

What do you mean, are you saying the OT is wrong when it describes the massacres of the Canaanites (and Amelikites)? How would you possibly know the biblical account is false?


Deuteronomy 20
20:12If it will make no peace with you, but will make war against you, then you shall besiege it: 20:13and when Yahweh your God delivers it into your hand, you shall strike every male of it with the edge of the sword: 20:14but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil of it, shall you take for a prey to yourself; and you shall eat the spoil of your enemies, which Yahweh your God has given you.
20:15Thus shall you do to all the cities which are very far off from you, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16But of the cities of these peoples, that Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes; 20:17but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Yahweh your God has commanded you...


(1 Sam 15:1-3 NIV) Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. {2} This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. {3} Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

[RebLem]

I would like to see a list of all 'basic human rights' and why they are so. As Keemum said, this pole becomes very pointless if there isn't agreement on the BHR.

As a matter of international law, every nation which joins the United Nations automatically subscribes to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.  On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears below. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[Joe_Campbell]

Thanks, Reblem!

[Hector]

No problem.

As a religious fundamentalist it is my right to burn you at the stake for worshipping Satan or, in this day and age, reading about warlocks such as Harry Potter.

On the other hand it is your right to believe in any religious twaddle that you want to without fear or favour, like being dragged screaming from your home at 3 o'clock in the morning to face questions as to why you believe the way you do.

In other words, you may believe that a foetus, that is unable to survive outside the womb no matter what facilities are available to enable such survival, is an unborn child and aborting it is, therefore, moider but that does not give you the right to kill the abortionist.

I know that this is a concept that directly conflicts with some deeply held beliefs but such is the way of the World...

Scientology apart, I have come to the conclusion that no matter how absurd the religion there is nothing as easy and simple to understand that can replace it, sadly.

[Ten thumbs]

I'm wondering why so many people are starving.

[bwv 1080]

I'm wondering why so many people are starving.

They are not eating enough food?

[Xenophanes]

What do you mean, are you saying the OT is wrong when it describes the massacres of the Canaanites (and Amelikites)? How would you possibly know the biblical account is false?


Deuteronomy 20
20:12If it will make no peace with you, but will make war against you, then you shall besiege it: 20:13and when Yahweh your God delivers it into your hand, you shall strike every male of it with the edge of the sword: 20:14but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil of it, shall you take for a prey to yourself; and you shall eat the spoil of your enemies, which Yahweh your God has given you.
20:15Thus shall you do to all the cities which are very far off from you, which are not of the cities of these nations. 20:16But of the cities of these peoples, that Yahweh your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes; 20:17but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Yahweh your God has commanded you...


(1 Sam 15:1-3 NIV) Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. {2} This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. {3} Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

It's not my field of expertise.  I do listen to the scholars, though, and they will tell you the situation was much more complex.  Jericho was destroyed early in the third millennium B. C., well before the conquest of Canaan, for example.  Ref. for that is B. W. Anderson, Understanding the Old Testament, 2nd ed., p. 120 and following, for example.  "After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?" Judges 1:1 (NIV)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=judges%201;&version=31;

If you don't like Anderson, a Princeton scholar, you could always check the Supplementary Volume to The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, which should be available in most libraries.