Author Topic: Film (movie) Music  (Read 118857 times)

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Offline MDL

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2008, 02:59:41 PM »
I just remembered that I had neglected to include John Corigliano's Altered States in my original list! :-[ :D

Ooh, good one! The music cues for the titles and the first hallucination (big-time Ken Russell whacked-out religious frenzy) are startling.

Offline Bogey

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2008, 03:05:00 PM »
Three by Rachel Portman that my wife and I truly enjoy:

Emma
Cider House Rules
Chocolat
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 03:15:33 PM by Bogey »
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Offline Bogey

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2008, 03:15:16 PM »
For sci-fi (staying away from monsters and super heroes, with a couple already mentioned):

Goldsmith
Planet of the Apes
Star Trek I
Total Recall
Alien


Herrmann
The Day the Earth Stood Still

Horner
Star Trek II

Garcia
The Time Machine

Elfman
Mars Attacks

Williams
Minority Report
Empire Strikes Back
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Offline Bogey

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2008, 03:40:42 PM »
Jazz efforts (more or less and some tv), a large handful of which I REALLY want to get on vinyl:

Bernstein
Staccato
Man With the Golden Arm
The Caretakers
The Silencers
Sweet Smell of Success
Walk on the Wild Side


Ellington
Anatomy for Murder

Dave Kahn and Melvyn Leonard
Mike Hammer

Mancini
Peter Gunn
Mr. Lucky

*Nice thing about Mancini is that if you like one you probably like 'em all.

Miles Davis
Ascenseur Pour L'Echafaud

Lalo Schifrin
Mannix

Count Basie, Benny Carter and Johnny Williams* (yes, the same one that gave us Jaws and Star Wars)
M Squad

Nelson Riddle
The Untouchables

and

 ;D
Moricone
The Untouchables


* John Williams was also a musician on Staccato, Peter Gunn and Mr. Lucky  8)


« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 03:55:27 PM by Bogey »
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

M forever

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2008, 06:09:45 PM »
Johnny Williams* (yes, the same one that gave us Jaws and Star Wars) [/b]

I saw Johnny W. live with the Boston Pops a little while ago. I am not really into film music but it was interesting to see the man who wrote all these famous film scores conduct some of his music and some classic film scores (like Doctor Zhivago and Lawrence of Arabia). They didn't play any Star Wars though. But they played a piece from the new Indiana Jones score and then as an encore, the main themes from Raiders of the Lost Ark and ET. A fun concert.

Offline Bogey

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2008, 06:18:59 PM »
I saw Johnny W. live with the Boston Pops a little while ago. I am not really into film music but it was interesting to see the man who wrote all these famous film scores conduct some of his music and some classic film scores (like Doctor Zhivago and Lawrence of Arabia). They didn't play any Star Wars though. But they played a piece from the new Indiana Jones score and then as an encore, the main themes from Raiders of the Lost Ark and ET. A fun concert.

Excellent.  My wife saw him as well when he came through Denver with, I believe, the Boston Pops.  Even with the popularity that he maintains with the populus, I still feel some underestimate his ability and range....they seem to put him in the Star Wars box, that is.  However, if they took the time to listen to such efforts that do not get as much play like Catch Me If You Can and Minority Report (there are others), then that would probably change.  Just my opinion. 
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Offline knight66

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2008, 11:17:54 PM »
The two Maurice Jarre scores, Zhivago and Lawrence of Arabia are among my favourites. I also have bought and would recommend this disc.



Brilliant sound and exciting music.

There are, as some people have said, too many to mention. But amongst my favourites are Ben Hur, Once upon a Time in America, The Mission, Lord of the Rings and The General's Daughter.

I was in Jordan earlier this year and when in the desert I could hear in my mind the themes from Lawrence of Arabia. We were also five days in the ancient site of Petra. On one day I was on my own and spent part of it using my iPod. Mahler and Beethoven quickly gave way to Zinman's Gladiator score. It fitted unbelievably well, so often a swell in the music coincided with a sudden spectacular vista of ruins, instant gooseflesh. Listening to it on the commuter train to London does not quite pack the same punch.

Mike
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Offline knight66

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2008, 01:46:27 AM »
There are all sorts of influences in Zinman's music, the opening to Das Rheingold is given a long 'quotation'. But I don't in the least find it a horrible score. Very atmospheric and it certainly works well in its context. If the acid test is whether it stands up on its own, well, in the context I explained, it did for me.

Citzen Kane has it been mentioned? It has memorable music in it; even the pastich opera is effective.

Mike
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Offline sound67

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2008, 03:04:04 AM »
There are all sorts of influences in Zinman's music.

Again, for the record  ;)

This is David Zinman, the conductor:

This is Hans "Video Killed the Radio Star" Zimmer, the film "composer":

I'd like to raise an issue that was hinted at early in this thread - as it is one of the more controversial issues in film music: The use of pre-existing concert (or pop) music in films as opposed to music written specifically for the picture.

"2001" has been mentioned as a favorite by some posters. Now, this is usually where discussions about the effectiveness of pre-existing concert music begin, as Kubrick's picture represents the most famous example of that technique - or, if I put it into my own terms, the most blatantly obvious.

Jerry Goldmsith, IMO second only to Bernard Herrmann as the greatest film composer in history, was outspoken in his criticism of the "2001" score, denouncing Kubrick's rejection of Alex North's original score (which Goldsmith himself recorded for Varese Sarabande) and the subsequent use of the temp-tracks of Richard and Johann Strauss pieces as ineffective and crass. His main argument, with which I concur, is that well-known concert music draws attention to itself and away from the visuals - something which effective original film music must not. Alex North's score, as evidenced in the Varese recording, would have been far more subtle, e.g. he wrote something closer to Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man to replace the Also Sprach Zarathustra temp-track.

There are many more instances where directors or producers (or music editors) replaced an original cue with stock classical music - without exception to the detriment of the film!!! Three examples that readily spring to mind:

1. The Greatest Story Ever Told (Alfred Newman, composer) - Newman had written his own "Hallelujah" for the end of the picture, but director George Stevens decided to use Händel's "Messias" instead. Ridiculous! The effect is gross and vulgar, it clashes horribly with Newman's score.

2. Alien (Jerry Goldsmith, composer) - Goldsmith had written an End Title based on the material of his greatly admired incidental music. Director Ridley Scott wanted a more "upbeat" End Title and thus replaced it with the opening of the 3rd Movement of Howard Hanson's "Romantic Symphony", which is hopelessly at odds with Goldsmith and with the character of the film.

3. Elizabeth I (the 1998 film, David Hirschfelder, composer) - includes a syrupy choral(!) rendition of Edward Elgar's "Nimrod" movement from the "Enigma Variations". Yuck! When I saw the film on DVD I was immediately distracted from the scene - which is something good film music never does.

Likewise, the use of pop songs in movies (which, following the success of Simon and Garfunbkel's "The Graduate", once threatened to put an end to symphonic film music once and for all) is more often deplorably superficial.

Thomas
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 11:19:39 PM by sound67 »
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Offline knight66

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2008, 04:28:18 AM »
Thank you for correcting the name Thomas, I still don't agree with you, but there we go, not a matter of consequence for either of us.

Mike
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Offline Bogey

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2008, 04:43:52 AM »
Zimmer's Gladiator score?  ;D Horrible score BTW.
Thomas


I enjoyed Zimmer's Gladiator score.....but then again, I enjoyed his earlier Crimson Tide score.....but then again, I enjoyed Badelt's Pirates of the Caribbean score.....but then again I enjoy Holst.

The worst rip-off of Holst's Mars this side of Bill Conti.  ;)

Thomas


Your soundtrack reviews always have the "right stuff" in them Thomas.  ;)
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

karlhenning

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2008, 05:17:21 AM »
Excellent.  My wife saw him as well when he came through Denver with, I believe, the Boston Pops.  Even with the popularity that he maintains with the populus, I still feel some underestimate his ability and range....they seem to put him in the Star Wars box, that is.  However, if they took the time to listen to such efforts that do not get as much play like Catch Me If You Can and Minority Report (there are others), then that would probably change.  Just my opinion. 

You're not alone, Bill: I know a musically notable chap who thinks well indeed of Jn Williams.  Williams hasn't won me over, but hey, things change.

karlhenning

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2008, 05:25:58 AM »
Again, for the record  ;)

[. . .]

This is Hans "Video Killed the Radio Star" Zimmer, the film "composer"

I thought that was The Buggles, Thomas? Was Zimmer a Buggle (so to speak)?

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2008, 07:16:47 AM »
"2001" has been mentioned as a favorite by some posters. Now, this is usually where discussions about the effectiveness of pre-existing concert music begin, as Kubrick's picture represents the most famous example of that technique - or, if I put it into my own terms, the most blatantly obvious.

Jerry Goldmsith, IMO second only to Bernard Herrmann as the greatest film composer in history, was outspoken in his criticism of the "2001" score, denouncing Kubrick's rejection of Alex North's original score (which Goldsmith himself recorded for Varese Sarabande) and the subsequent use of the temp-tracks of Richard and Johann Strauss pieces as ineffective and crass. His main argument, with which I concur, is that well-known concert music draws attention to itself and away from the visuals - something which effective original film music must not. Alex North's score, as evidenced in the Varese recording, would have been far more subtle, e.g. he wrote something closer to Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man to replace the Also Sprach Zarathustra temp-track.

Quote
Likewise, the use of pop songs in movies (which, following the success of Simon and Garfunbkel's "The Graduate", once threatened to put an end to symphonic film music once and for all) is more often deplorably superficial.

You're using two prime examples of how music can actually be used to ENHANCE a film, not detract from it.

Intentionality is the key. What is the aim of the music? To provide a backdrop for the visuals or to be integrated into the visuals? If the latter then both 2001 and The Graduate succeed admirably.



« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 07:38:45 AM by donwyn »
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Gustav

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2008, 09:31:57 AM »

A Japanese movie called "The Mystery of Rampo", here are two tracks from the movie:

http://www.mediafire.com/?zrd8zaytxxo

http://www.mediafire.com/?mqex2oafmfr
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 09:34:20 AM by Gustav »

Offline sound67

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2008, 10:13:01 AM »
Intentionality is the key. What is the aim of the music? To provide a backdrop for the visuals or to be integrated into the visuals? If the latter then both 2001 and The Graduate succeed admirably.

I didn't write that "The Graduate" was a song score that detrimented from the effect of the movie, only that its success kicked off a regular wave of such scores, many of them inferior and unsuitable for the films - in particular, there should be a moratorium on the use of "Stand by me" e.g. ;)

On "2001" I disagree. North's score would have enhanced the austerity of the film, the temp score is a carnival freak show.

The Strauss/Strauss mix intentional? Why then had Kubrick commissioned Alex North to write an original score?

Thomas
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht

Offline drogulus

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2008, 11:02:18 AM »


I'd like to raise an issue that was hinted at early in this thread - as it is one of the more controversial issues in film music: The use of pre-existing concert (or pop) music in films as opposed to music written specifically for the picture.

"2001" has been mentioned as a favorite by some posters. Now, this is usually where discussions about the effectiveness of pre-existing concert music begin, as Kubrick's picture represents the most famous example of that technique - or, if I put it into my own terms, the most blatantly obvious.

Jerry Goldmsith, IMO second only to Bernard Herrmann as the greatest film composer in history, was outspoken in his criticism of the "2001" score, denouncing Kubrick's rejection of Alex North's original score (which Goldsmith himself recorded for Varese Sarabande) and the subsequent use of the temp-tracks of Richard and Johann Strauss pieces as ineffective and crass. His main argument, with which I concur, is that well-known concert music draws attention to itself and away from the visuals - something which effective original film music must not. Alex North's score, as evidenced in the Varese recording, would have been far more subtle, e.g. he wrote something closer to Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man to replace the Also Sprach Zarathustra temp-track.

There are many more instances where directors or producers (or music editors) replaced an original cue with stock classical music - without exception to the detriment of the film!!! Three examples that readily spring to mind:

1. The Greatest Story Ever Told (Alfred Newman, composer) - Newman had written his own "Hallelujah" for the end of the picture, but director George Stevens decided to use Händel's "Messias" instead. Ridiculous! The effect is gross and vulgar, it clashes horribly with Newman's score.

2. Alien (Jerry Goldsmith, composer) - Goldsmith had written an End Title based on the material of his greatly admired incidental music. Director Ridley Scott wanted a more "upbeat" End Title and thus replaced it with the opening of the 3rd Movement of Howard Hanson's "Romantic Symphony", which is hopelessly at odds with Goldsmith and with the character of the film.

3. Elizabeth I (the 1998 film, David Hirschfelder, composer) - includes a syrupy choral(!) rendition of Edward Elgar's "Nimrod" movement from the "Enigma Variations". Yuck! When I saw the film on DVD I was immediately distracted from the scene - which is something good film music never does.

Likewise, the use of pop songs in movies (which, following the success of Simon and Garfunbkel's "The Graduate", once threatened to put an end to symphonic film music once and for all) is more often deplorably superficial.

Thomas

      Though I disagree with you about the effectiveness of the music in 2001(as well as Barry Lyndon and A Clockwork Orange), I'm entirely with you on Alien, and the terrible use of Nimrod in Elizabeth. Couldn't a contemporary composer write something for the final transformation into the inhuman Virgin Queen?

      The mid-'60s shift to pop music in films is held responsible for ending the great partnership of Herrman and Hitchcock. A group of young filmmakers in the '70s then took up Herrman and gave work to Williams, and the serious orchestral score was reborn. So we owe a vote of thanks to Spielberg, Lucas, Scorsese and De Palma (and before them to Francois Truffaut).
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 11:05:14 AM by drogulus »
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Offline Bogey

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2008, 12:13:43 PM »

I just picked up a book on "Hitchcock's Music" by Jack Sullivan in London. Should make a very interesting read.

As for new recordings of Herrmann's film music, IMHO Varese did better than Sony. They released a lot of premiere recordings of complete Herrmann scores, and often good ones, too (their Torn Curtain was an exception, because of the bathtub sound and indifferent playing - compare to Elmer Bernstein's version!). Their Vertigo e.g. is superb.

[
Thomas


As you noted, a re-recording.  Is the vinyl that is out there contain the original soundtrack work, Thomas? or does this cd work for original music?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vertigo-Original-Recording-Soundtrack-CD-Herrmann_W0QQitemZ320285893462QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320285893462&_trkparms=72%3A1073%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:16:10 PM by Bogey »
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2008, 07:43:30 PM »
Sound67 wrote:

Quote
On "2001" I disagree. North's score would have enhanced the austerity of the film, the temp score is a carnival freak show.

Well, this is the sort of thing someone says on an internet board to make themselves look good, or "edgy", or whatever.

But it actually makes them look little more than pseudo.

You and I can't even begin to approach the accomplishments of an acknowledged master of his craft. And Kubrick is just that. To even attempt to trivialize his efforts by suggesting "improvements" in what is universally regarded as a masterpiece is the HEIGHT of pomposity. What would you suggest Brahms do with his fourth symphony?   

Quote
The Strauss/Strauss mix intentional?

Not sure what you're driving at.

Quote
Why then had Kubrick commissioned Alex North to write an original score?

That's very simple. Kubrick hadn't yet decided on what music to use and wanted options. Testing the waters to see which score worked best. It's not unlike the effort we ourselves take when trying on clothes. It's trial and error until we find just the right look, right?



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline sound67

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Re: Film (movie) Music
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2008, 09:44:55 PM »
Well, this is the sort of thing someone says on an internet board to make themselves look good, or "edgy", or whatever.

But it actually makes them look little more than pseudo.

Your opinion. IMO (and I co-edited two magazines on film music over a combined period of 13 years)  it was a crass misjudgement that paid off only in the minds of the easily impressed. Jerry Goldsmith was certainly right on that one. And HE understand a lot more about film music than either of us, or, for that matter, Stanely Kubrick.

Quote
You and I can't even begin to approach the accomplishments of an acknowledged master of his craft. And Kubrick is just that. To even attempt to trivialize his efforts by suggesting "improvements" in what is universally regarded as a masterpiece is the HEIGHT of pomposity.

Actually, some people think that 2001 itself is the HEIGHT of pomposity. Ever read the MAD magazine spoof on it?  :D

Closer to the point: I suggest you play the North score against the picture (which one can, thanks to the Varese CD) and judge for yourself which is more effective. I.e. if you do have your own mind on the matter, not if you think Kubrick's word is God's (which apparently you do).

I trust you now the North score, otherwise your opinion on the matter would be presumptuous.  ;D

Quote
That's very simple. Kubrick hadn't yet decided on what music to use and wanted options.

Only in a fantasy dreamland is it that simple. Commissioning a score is a costly endeavour because come what may, the composer has to be paid. NOBODY commissions a score unless he intends to use it!

On CLOCKWORK ORANGE the matter was somewhat different: Kubrick hired a synthie composer, Walter Carlos, to deliberatly distort Beethoven, and in doing so create, at least in part,  a quasi-original score.

It is well known that certain directors, like Kubrick, or Woody Allen, favor the use of non-original music. In most cases it backfires, e.g. the pathetic overuse of Barber's "Adagio" in Oliver Stone's "Platoon" - Georges Delerue did compose an elegiac movement for the film, which would have been more effective.

BTW: People here criticize works of art all the time.

Thomas
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 10:07:01 PM by sound67 »
"Vivaldi didn't compose 500 concertos. He composed the same concerto 500 times" - Igor Stravinsky

"Mozart is a menace to musical progress, a relic of rituals that were losing relevance in his own time and are meaningless to ours." - Norman Lebrecht