Cool Coffee Machines - Click to see details on Amazon. All sales from these links support your forum.

Author Topic: Winterreise  (Read 6047 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1211
  • Location: Germany, Ruhrgebiet
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich. Sibelius, Bruckner, Autechre, RVW, Elgar, ...
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2008, 11:11:29 PM »
http://www.simonkeenlyside.info/Articles/Perform/Recital/20041019+WinterreiseMelbo.html
Oh, once again a disgustingly poor and blue background. Do people go to theater in order to suffer?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 11:13:46 PM by Wurstwasser »

Offline Velimir

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2011, 04:56:45 AM »
Help me fill this gap in my collection!

I've been YouTubing and sampling here and there. Predictably, guys like Fischer-Dieskau and Quasthoff make a good impression. Somewhat to my surprise, I'm also really impressed by Christine Schäfer's version - sounds modernistic, almost like Schubert as filtered through Schoenberg.

Then there are versions for hurdy-gurdy, chamber orchestra, and God only knows what else. Please advise, you Schubertologists and Liederologists!
formerly SPITVALVE

I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not like the screaming passengers in his car.

Offline Marc

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2394
  • Sine Cerere et Bach friget Venus
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2011, 05:06:41 AM »
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau is a solid choice in this cycle, f.i. in his DG recording with Gerald Moore.
Personally, I've always considered the one with Christoph Prégardien very convincing. He's impressively accompanied by Andreas Staier on a beautiful sounding fortepiano.

Help support the GMG Classical Music Forum by purchasing from Amazon using this link, this link, or this link

Antoine Marchand

  • Guest
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2011, 05:28:19 AM »
My favorite version:



The seasoned Max van Egmond is just perfect, but almost that important: the gorgeous fortepiano played by Penelope Crawford is a real and warm partner for him. A generous sample can be listened to HERE.


 8) 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 06:42:10 AM by Antoine Marchand »

Offline mc ukrneal

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6192
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2011, 05:32:39 AM »
Tremendous choice here and many of them very good. I think the top chocies would be DFD (with Demus), Gura, Fassbaender, and Goerne (Hyperion). But you won't go wrong with Quasthoff, Pregardien (mentioned by Marc), Schreier, or Bostridge either. And I am forgetting some I am sure. I generally don't like the female voice for this one, so am not very familiar with it myself, but have heard good things (meaning Schafer).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 06:11:50 AM by mc ukrneal »
Offenbach gets a raw deal in recordings considering his talent! For a discussion of this outstanding composer too little recorded: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5572.

Online Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17013
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2011, 05:53:19 AM »
This is one of those threads where every version is going to be recommended, I fear  :D  When I'm in the mood for Fischer-Dieskau, I turn to the version with Barenboim. But really, I prefer a tenor (the higher voice sounding more youthful than a baritone). Schreier and Schiff are, I think, incomparable.



I really like the Hans Zender orchestration too.




Sarge


« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 07:37:07 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Velimir

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2011, 06:28:49 AM »
This is one of those threads where every version is going to be recommended, I fear  :D 

OK...in view of that, what's a "safe," standard rec? (like, the one everyone can agree is the 2nd best, or something like that)
formerly SPITVALVE

I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not like the screaming passengers in his car.

Antoine Marchand

  • Guest
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2011, 06:43:48 AM »
OK...in view of that, what's a "safe," standard rec? (like, the one everyone can agree is the 2nd best, or something like that)

After that new definition I have crossed out my recommendation.   :D

Offline mc ukrneal

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6192
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2011, 06:53:32 AM »
OK...in view of that, what's a "safe," standard rec? (like, the one everyone can agree is the 2nd best, or something like that)
I would suggest something different. If you liked one that you heard or one of the named singers caught your eye - just go with that. This is a harder piece than most to pick a 'best' as there are so many variables: sound of the voice, articulation, stress, interpretation, etc. I love Goerne - I just love the sound of his voice (youthful soundings) and how he blends with the pianist (who is also excellent). But I can't argue with Marc's or Sarge's pick (for example) - they sing it wonderfully as well. Once you get to this point it is just a matter of preferance.
Offenbach gets a raw deal in recordings considering his talent! For a discussion of this outstanding composer too little recorded: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5572.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4137
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2011, 07:10:14 AM »
The Winterreise to get, in my opinion, is Schreier/Richter. I think  it is the greatest lieder recording ever made.

If you really want a baritone, then I think you should hear Hotter sing it. I prefer the second recording with Moore because I think it's  contemplative and introspective, which I like. But some people I know also cherish the first, often because they feel that it evokes a very personal response to the horrors of the second world war.



« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 11:20:35 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5183
  • An American Hero!
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2011, 07:18:01 AM »
I would suggest something different. If you liked one that you heard or one of the named singers caught your eye - just go with that. This is a harder piece than most to pick a 'best' as there are so many variables: sound of the voice, articulation, stress, interpretation, etc. I love Goerne - I just love the sound of his voice (youthful soundings) and how he blends with the pianist (who is also excellent). But I can't argue with Marc's or Sarge's pick (for example) - they sing it wonderfully as well. Once you get to this point it is just a matter of preference.

Hans Hotter is always an all-around fave!   0:)

If possible, a fascinating experience is to listen to the middle 3 of Fischer-Dieskau's performances, two with Gerald Moore in the 60's and 70's and one from 1979 or 1980 with Daniel Barenboim.

1963:

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-Great-Recordings-Century/dp/B00006I0DH/ref=sr_1_11?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595245&sr=1-11

1971 (or so it seems)

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-D-911-Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B000001G60/ref=sr_1_13?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595708&sr=1-13

1979/1980

http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Winterreise-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B0000012ZU/ref=sr_1_36?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1306595070&sr=1-36
"One likes to know everything!"

"Number 2" speaking to "Number 6" (Patrick McGoohan) in The Prisoner.

Offline Todd

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6864
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2011, 07:53:01 AM »
Somewhat to my surprise, I'm also really impressed by Christine Schäfer's version - sounds modernistic, almost like Schubert as filtered through Schoenberg.


I really enjoy Ms Schäfer's version, and agree that it is a more "modern" take.  But you really must get Fischer-Dieskau in this work.  Doesn't really matter which one I think, though his pairings with Gerald Moore are reliably good.  His version with Demus is darned good, too.
The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline mjwal

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 500
  • Location: Lagorce/France - Berlin
  • Currently Listening to:
    Goehr, Beethoven, William Lawes, Giuffre Trio, Steve Lacy, Eisler
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2011, 06:23:34 AM »
I like the Zender orchestration, too, Sarge, though some have dismissed it. I don't know either of the Schreier versions - I shall obtain the one with Richter the next time I want to listen to a new version, because of Mandryka's fervent recommendation. I have never taken to F-D in this cycle, having imprinted on Hotter in the work. There are, by the way, two very similar early (1942 and '43) Hotter recordings with Raucheisen - the 42 Polydor version is better - making the one with Moore the 4th after the recording w/Schröter, which >I haven't heard. I like two versions with forte-piano, the very first - possibly - by Ernst Haefliger w/Dähler, and the more recent one by Prégardien w/Staier recommended by Marc.
My absolute favourite is a very historical performance recorded almost in the hour of Germany's defeat by Peter Anders w/Raucheisen, a searing performance. I think everyone should know this.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Online springrite

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4986
  • Location: Flying all over the place
  • Currently Listening to:
    Lots of Bach, Brian, Mahler, Rubbra, Beethoven and Buddhist chants
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2011, 07:32:06 AM »
My absolute favourite is a very historical performance recorded almost in the hour of Germany's defeat by Peter Anders w/Raucheisen, a searing performance. I think everyone should know this.

What is your take on his 1948 recording (Cologne)?
Do what I must do, and let what must happen happen.

Offline knight66

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8677
    • The Mirror and the Lamp
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2011, 07:34:20 AM »
Another vote for that fantasmagorical Zender homage. I love it, but it cannot be someone's first go at the piece. So for a classic rendition, almost any of those listed above, apart from Bostridge, I don't think he carries the legato lines properly.

Here is one not so far mentioned. A man who has a special way with words. He also has a superb partner in Gerold Huber.



Mike
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 07:37:19 AM by knight66 »
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline mjwal

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 500
  • Location: Lagorce/France - Berlin
  • Currently Listening to:
    Goehr, Beethoven, William Lawes, Giuffre Trio, Steve Lacy, Eisler
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2011, 07:54:42 AM »
What is your take on his 1948 recording (Cologne)?
I had that on LP long before I managed to find the '45 recording, and only listened to it once. His voice has already hardened (from singing roles that overextended him, I believe), and there is something metallically marmoreal about it all as I remember (it's been 30 years if it's been a day. I'll dig the discs out and re-listen - watch this space) - little remains of the fluidity and control of vocal texture the younger Anders had in spades (in his early Mozart recordings, for instance).
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Offline J. Z. Herrenberg

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8269
  • William Havergal Brian, symphonist (1876-1972)
    • JZH Text Services
  • Location: Delft, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Brian, Ligeti, Jones, Orr, Magnard, Langgaard, Pettersson and 'The Hobbit' soundtrack
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2011, 12:30:58 PM »
Another Zender fan here. I heard his version on the radio during the 1990s, a live broadcast from the Holland Festival (iirc), and found it absolutely fascinating.


In the more 'regular' versions I love Hotter, Fassbaender and Fischer-Dieskau.
"O infinite virtue, com’st thou smiling from
The world’s great snare uncaught?"

(Antony and Cleopatra, Act 4, Scene 8 )

Offline Velimir

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2299
  • Location: Chicagoland
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2011, 10:28:49 PM »
Another Zender fan here. I heard his version on the radio during the 1990s, a live broadcast from the Holland Festival (iirc), and found it absolutely fascinating.

What specifically did Zender do to the piece? Is "composed interpretation" just a fancy term for "orchestration"?
formerly SPITVALVE

I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not like the screaming passengers in his car.

Offline J. Z. Herrenberg

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8269
  • William Havergal Brian, symphonist (1876-1972)
    • JZH Text Services
  • Location: Delft, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Brian, Ligeti, Jones, Orr, Magnard, Langgaard, Pettersson and 'The Hobbit' soundtrack
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2011, 11:00:52 PM »
What specifically did Zender do to the piece? Is "composed interpretation" just a fancy term for "orchestration"?


I think Sarge can tell you more precisely, because I only heard it once. But no, it isn't just an orchestration, though it contains one. It recreates the work, adding bridges between the songs, for instance (if I remember correctly!) It is a 20th-century re-imagining, showing (me) quite startlingly that Schubert's songs are also related to Kurt Weill's. Usually I don't like conductors/composers interfering with a work, but in this case I do, because Zender is faithful to the spirit of Schubert.
"O infinite virtue, com’st thou smiling from
The world’s great snare uncaught?"

(Antony and Cleopatra, Act 4, Scene 8 )

Offline knight66

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8677
    • The Mirror and the Lamp
Re: Winterreise
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2011, 11:05:44 PM »
No, it is much more than orchestrated. A chamber orchestra is used with some percussion instruments. It is much longer in the Zender guise. The Hans Hotter version lasts 75 minutes, Zender's totals 90 minutes.

He provides extended introductions, for example in the first song, there is a long percussive introduction which creeps towards you evoking the step by step tramp of a long journey. The violin bow hits the bridge, a horn blares. It provides a chilly landscape and an apt setting for the singer. That song lasts over three minutes longer than it normally does. In the middle of 'Gute Nacht' he provides a violent discordant passage with the singer moving into declaimed sprechgesang.

In other songs he takes themes and provides interpolated orchestral passages between verses.

All this reads to me like he does violence to Schubert, but it works wonderfully and is clearly a reworking done out of love and admiration. He plays up the phantasmagorical aspects of Schubert's cycle evoking weather in all its violence, wind, storms rain. It has to be heard before it is dismissed.

The performance itself is virtuosic. Blochwitz has never sounded better or more engaged.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK